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Natural Born Citizens: Or How to Beat a Subject to Death with a Stick.

A TD Exclusive by Judah Benjamin

Copyright © 2008 Judah Benjamin. All Rights Reserved.

I have been working on a compendium article and it came out longer than “War and Peace” so I decided to split it up.

This was originally part one and re-iterates my views on the natural-born citizen clause of Article II. I’m repeating myself because it has become quite clear that there are a lot of people reading this blog who haven’t read, or haven’t understood “Divided Loyalties, Part One” and so on. Several people have said in comments that there isn’t a definition of the term natural-born citizen, or alternatively have repeatedly insisted on confusing it with the terms citizen by birth, native citizen, birthright citizen, born citizen, or citizen under the XIVth Amendment. All of these latter terms basically mean the same thing, except citizen under the XIVth Amendment, and none of them are in fact identical with the term natural-born citizen.

This article will concentrate on the admitted fact that Barack Obama was born with dual citizenship.

This article, obviously, has a lot to do with Donofrio’s case against the New Jersey Secretary of State scheduled for Justices’ Conference of the SCOTUS on December 5th. For this reason I shall look at Barack Hussein Obama II (hereinafter referred to as BHO II) and John Sidney McCain III (hereinafter referred to as McCain) from the perspective of the Common Law definition of natural-born citizen. Before I do so I will briefly look at Roger Calero, the SWP Presidential Candidate who is also mentioned in the Donofrio case.

Roger Calero was born in Nicaragua in 1969 and came to the USA in 1985. He has stood for election to the Office of POTUS twice and is admittedly not a natural-born citizen and is therefore Ineligible to hold the Office of POTUS (in fact Calero may not even be a US citizen, but a Green Card holder married to an American). He was on the ballot in nine states in 2004 and five in 2008. There is nothing in law to prevent an Ineligible candidate from running, per se, but it shouldn’t be too much of a stretch to think a Secretary of State, whether it be Nina Wells of New Jersey or anyone else, should ascertain that Calero was born Nicaraguan and therefore refuse to put him on the ballot ab initio. It is quite possible that Justice Thomas has put the Donofrio case to Conference purely because of Calero. Why the New Jersey Court, or Justice Souter, dismissed I cannot imagine. Calero’s presence on the ballot, while probably legal, is an anomaly that should be looked at, especially, in terms of the old Common Law definition of the word Eligible.

The next time you are feeling particularly sure “the fix is in” and that my abiding notion that the main problem with this Election isn’t a gigantic conspiracy but a mass of small conspiracies and cabals and a vast mass of negligence, incompetence, ignorance and just plain a-holeism consider the candidacy of Roger Calero. You might also want to think about Governor Bill Richardson’s candidacy, Richardson is a Mexican-American bipatride and a natural-born Mexican citizen, or national, under the Mexican Constitution. It isn’t just BHO II, not even close.

My next digression involves explaining a view I haven’t made much of previously, in fact I’m not sure I’ve mentioned it at all. I have spent some months researching the whole issue of natural-born citizenship as applied to BHO II and defending the status quo. This has undoubtedly led most people to assume that I, personally, believe that the natural-born citizen clause is absolutely right and inviolate. Well, I’m not sure that’s true, and if I’m not you shouldn’t be sure I am. However, it can only be changed by a Constitutional Amendment and until there is such an Amendment it is the law and it should be enforced. Further, as long as it is the law, a mechanism to police it that works should be put in place and used. I fully understand why the natural-born citizen clause is there, it is a National Security issue, but I can’t see any evidence that a naturalized citizen would be any more likely to betray the Republic than a born one, Bill Ayers and Timothy McVeigh are born citizens (in fact natural-born citizens). A dual citizen on the other hand can’t make certain treaties under International Law so I suspect that even under an Amendment such persons might still be excluded. Granting that, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and it has not been Amended at this time and cannot be Amended retroactively, so BHO II is ineligible however you choose to look at it.

OK, a final warning before we “get down to the meat and potatoes”, as my father used to say. The following things have absolutely no bearing on the natural-born citizen issue:

1. The dreaded “COLB” forgery argument. It would be imperative that the SCOTUS see the Long Form Vault Certificate of Live Birth, etc, if they decide to hear the case but even if it contains material identical with the “COLB” that would have no impact on his eligibility. His surrogates have already admitted to dual citizenship at birth. Only if the original deviates utterly from anything he has ever said would it matter and if it did BHO II would be guilty of fraudulent misrepresentation, or perjury. The SCOTUS may in fact require to see all of the documents BHO II has concealed if they decide to hear the case.

2. BHO II’s race, religion, or political beliefs. Religious Tests are forbidden under the Constitution, there is no law to prevent someone who is, say, a Marxist from becoming POTUS and there clearly should not be any racial component in the issue. Might I point out here that among his opponents there are plenty of African Americans and the whole BHO II Eligibility question has been driven by Democrats and Independents from the beginning, while we have gathered Republican allies it didn’t start with Republicans.

3. US Immigration Laws, including INA 1952 and INTCA 1994. The issue of natural-born citizenship is not covered by any US Immigration and Naturalization Legislation dated after 1795, the impact of these laws would only eventuate if BHO II was illegitimate. I shall explain later why I don’t think he was. I am not saying BHO II isn’t a US citizen, I’m not saying he has lost his US citizenship, I am not saying he is naturalized and I am most definitely not saying he was born in Mombasa, Protectorate of Zanzibar, British East Africa. Do not bring any of these subjects up in comments about this article, please, because they are not germane in context. Any, or all of the above could be true but they would not impact directly on the issue at hand.

Here we go then, our first set of definitions:

“Native: A natural-born subject or citizen; a citizen by birth; one who owes his domicile or citizenship to the fact of his birth within the country referred to.”, Black’s Law Dictionary, 6th Edition, Springer (1994)

“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government, i.e. in its territorial limits, or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.”, Black’s Law Dictionary, 6th Edition, Springer (1994)

Nice, neat and to the point, neither exactly true, nor exactly wrong. I’ll be citing a number of sources to make this point. The second definition is far too simplistic and the first really doesn’t make anything other than unclear.

Under definition 1. BHO II is certainly a native of the USA, assuming he was born in Honolulu. McCain is certainly not one. However, one could be led to think that 1. also makes BHO II a natural-born citizen of the USA and McCain not one. This, as we shall see, is quite probably untrue.

Under definition 2. both BHO II and McCain would appear to be natural-born citizens but 2. contains an enormous error in that many thousands of people have been born within the territorial limits of the USA who were never US Citizens at all and who were most definitely not natural-born citizens and indeed the clause “or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.” would give you good reason to suspect that that might be the case. Think about the child of two Russian Diplomats born in The Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, The Johns Hopkins Hospital, Nelson Building in Baltimore. Such a child would be born within the territorial limits of the USA but would be neither a natural-born citizen of the USA nor even a citizen of the USA. There have been debatable cases too, aplenty.

Let me observe here that if my theory is correct, any and all persons of official standing, Judicial, Legislative or Executive who are aware that BHO II is Ineligible and who have either failed to act in this matter or who have acted to prevent this matter from being brought before the courts are probably guilty of misprision and have certainly come within the ambit of the laws governing misfeasance, wherein “A Common Law Offense whereby a public officer, acting as such, who wilfully neglects to perform his duty and/or wilfully misconducts himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public’s trust in the office holder, without reasonable excuse or justification”. See: “Modern American Law: A Systematic and Comprehensive Commentary on the Fundamental Principles of American Law and Procedure, Accompanied by Leading Illustrative Cases and Legal Forms”, Eugene Allen Gilmore, William Charles Wermuth, Blackstone Institute, Chicago, (1914) and “Blackstone’s Commentaries Abridged”, William C Sprague, Callaghan and Company, Chicago, (1915) and “Bouvier’s Law Dictionary and Concise Encyclopedia.”, John Bouvier, West Publishing Company (1914). Misfeasance is a Tort and Misprision a High Misdemeanor. My references are, of course, historical but such laws are still on the statute books at both Federal and State level. Justice Souter, in particular, as an accredited senior English lawyer (he is an Honorary Master of the Bench of Grey’s Inn and an Honorary Fellow of Magdalene College, Oxford), is well aware of this. David Hackett Souter also knows full well what it says in Blackstone, unless Oxford University failed to teach him anything in the early 60s, which I do not believe.

I gave these quotations in order to warn the reader not to simply look at any one modern source, no matter how significant it might appear to be.

There are a host of modern articles and opinions on the subject of the natural-born citizen clause. You could read “The Natural-Born Citizen Clause and Presidential Eligibility: An Approach for Resolving Two Hundred Years of Uncertainty.”, by Jill Pryor, or “Natural Born in the USA: The Striking Unfairness and Dangerous Ambiguity of the Constitution’s Presidential Eligibility Clause and Why we Need to Fix it.”, by Sarah Helene Duggin and Mary Beth Collins, “Amending the Natural Born Citizen Requirement: Globalization as the Impetus and Obstacle”, by Sarah P Herlihy or “The Pernicious ‘Natural Born’ Clause of the Constitution: Why Immigrants Like Governors Schwarzenegger and Granholm Ought to be Able to Become Presidents”, by John W Dean. You could, as I did, plow through the writings of T Alexander Aleinikoff, Dean of Georgetown University Law School, Washington, former Executive Associate Commissioner of Programs of the INS and General Counsel of the INS. Or you could read articles by Federalist lawyers like “Defining Natural-Born Citizen.”, by P A Madison, or go read the Volokh Conspiracy blog, etc. I’ve read all of these and more and as boring as it is, and if you have the time, I suggest you do too.

If you do read all of this material you will realize that a fairly large group within the American Legal Profession want to see the natural-born citizen clause scrapped and have wanted to see that for many years. This has nothing directly to do with BHO II, he is a product of this and not the cause. You will also see that the Lawyers on both sides must currently be extremely frustrated because this issue needs to be settled before the SCOTUS, can indeed be settled in no other venue, and while McCain is co-operating BHO II is doing everything in his power to prevent the issue from being addressed (at least that’s how it looks to me).

If you read all of this material you will also realize something else. Congress cannot change the meaning of The Constitution by legislation, the Constitution can only be changed by Amendment. Every part of the Constitution has to be understood in terms of the language and law of its own day, The Supreme Court may interpret it but it cannot alter even a comma. Aleinikoff has observed that the Constitution “cannot be changed by any subsequent legislation. Only an Amendment duly achieved under its terms can alter any particular of it.” “The Constitution can only be understood by examining the original meaning and intent of any given provision within it, and the various amendments must be viewed in the same light”. In short, there is no relevance to Article II in any modern legislation, you have to determine who is and who is not a Natural Born Citizen by finding out what the men who framed it meant. T Alexander Aleinikoff is an authority to be respected, especially on matters pertaining to Citizenship and the Constitution, even if one disagrees with him.

I’m not quite persuaded by Madison’s argument because it seems to me that the XIVth Amendment impacts on citizenship generally rather than the more specific concept of natural-born citizenship [but see: "Rights of Citizens and Persons under the Fourteenth Amendment.", Chin-Yung Yen, Columbia University (1905)]. However, since many people do believe that the XIVth is involved directly and since many of the arguments he uses are very pertinent I have included material from his article in my own. I urge you to read his views, it is a well written piece and quite interesting:

http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html

Donofrio may be taking this view and it may be right, certainly it would have the same effect from BHO II’s standpoint as my exact view, but for slightly different reasons. What Madison does show though, is that those who argue that there is an “Irreconcilable Conflict” between the natural-born citizen clause of Article II and the XIVth Amendment, or that there is some form of “Implied Amendment” of the clause by the XIVth, are talking nonsense. No such conflict exists save in the mind of someone who doesn’t understand, or doesn’t want to understand, the Common Law as it stood in 1787 or 1868. Those opposed to a strict interpretation of either the native-born citizen clause or the XIVth Amendment oppose such a reading on the basis that it is “manifestly unfair” or even “a ridiculous provision” (Aleinikoff). Well I’d say they are right, it is unfair, but so is a ban on Gay Marriage or Medical Marijuana and so is the fact that the Equal Rights Amendment has never been passed. Since when did “fairness” ever have anything to do with whether or not something is currently the law of the land, or the State? I want to see a full Equal Rights Amendment passed, I think it is manifestly unfair that there are people who cannot get Healthcare. If you want to see the law changed then campaign to change it, don’t try to distort, or side step it, screaming “It’s not fair!” like a character in a Peanuts cartoon. It is the business of the Courts to ensure that the principle of “fairness” as embodied in “Natural Justice” is applied. While we do not have any reason to expect the Law of the Land to be “fair” per se, we do have a reasonable expectation that it should be “Just” and “Equitable” and a Constitutional guarantee in the equal protection clause of the XIVth Amendment. The courts should do everything in their power to ensure that this is the case. I will return to this point later.

In essence there is no difference between Madison’s basic argument and mine because he is taking for granted that the lawyers and politicians who drafted the XIVth Amendment had read Blackstone and believed that what he said applied in the USA as strongly as it applied in the UK and its then Empire. I shall quote a number of sources both American and British during this article and I want you to bear in mind that one may cite opinion and precedent from other Common Law jurisdictions in a US Court. These may not be binding but they are of relevance.

If we cannot turn to current Law, such as INA 1952 or INTCA1994, or to such precedent cases as United States vs Wong Kim Ark, Afroyim vs Rusk, etc, etc where can we turn?

Initially we must turn to the Constitution itself. Clearly the Framers did not see themselves as being natural-born citizens. How could they, for to be a United States citizen by birth one would have to have been born subsequent to 1776, ie nobody over the age of nine could be a citizen by birth in 1787? For this reason they inserted the so-called Grandfather Clause. [Please note that this Clause made Alexander Hamilton as Eligible for the Office of POTUS as George Washington.]

Were then all persons born in the United States after 1776 citizens by birth under simple ius soli? Some people contend that this is the case but it is quite clear that this was not an established and certain principle until the passing of the XIVth Amendment in 1868, despite the Equal Rights Act of 1866. Any survey of Legal Texts will confirm this. Even were this to be the case, are the terms natural-born citizen and citizen by birth (or birthright citizen, native citizen, born citizen, or citizen by statute, all synonymous) identical?

The term natural-born citizen is to be found in Article II:

“No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

In the United States Naturalization Law of March 26, 1790 (1 Stat. 103) it says:

“the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens”.

Prior to that it appears in a letter. On July 25th, 1787, John Jay wrote to George Washington, then Presiding Officer of the Constitutional Convention:

“Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American Army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.”

John Jay was the First Chief Justice of the United States, among many other things, and it was this letter that caused Clause 5 of Article II to exist. In this letter we can see that the term natural-born citizen was present prior to the writing of the Constitution. I may add for the benefit of those who think that the term citizen was a novelty in 1787 that they should try reading a book on Roman Law, such as, “Studies in Roman Law: with Comparative Views of the Laws of England, France and Scotland” by Lord MacKenzie, Justice of the Court of Session, William Blackwood and Sons (1870). They should then reflect on how many colonists were from Scotland, a Roman Law based Legal Jurisdiction. Having said that, what did Jay mean when he wrote to Washington?

When dealing with any matter of the Common Law as known in the eighteenth and nineteenth century one turns automatically to “Commentaries on the Laws of England”, by Justice Sir William Blackstone. S A Reilly in “Our Legal Heritage”, 5th Edition (2004) said this:

“William Blackstone lectured on law at Oxford University in 1753. As a result, the first professorship of English law was established. His lectures were published in 1769 as the “Commentaries on the Laws of England”. They greatly influenced the American colonists and were the basis of legal education in England and America for years. They were comprehensive and covered real property, crime and punishment, court procedure, contract, corporations, and commercial law.”

In “Abraham Lincoln and the Union”, Nathaniel W Stephenson, Yale University Press (1918), the influence of Blackstone on Lincoln is addressed and de Toqueville cites Blackstone in “Democracy in America”. When it comes to the way people saw the Common Law in the late 18th and 19th centuries, Justice Sir William Blackstone is not an authority he is “The Authority” par excellence.

Blackstone was, of course, English and so rather than natural-born citizen he speaks of natural-born subjects and natural allegiances but he deals with the topic at length. One may find as many passages as one may wish in the Commentaries but we will content ourselves with a few. [See: "Commentaries on the Laws of England, with Additional Notes by George Sharswood, Professor of Law in the University of Pennsylvania", Justice Sir William Blackstone, Childs & Peterson (1860), "Commentaries on the Laws of England, Edited by William Carey Jones, Director of the School of Jurisprudence, University of California", Justice Sir William Blackstone, Bancroft-Whitney Company (1915), or "Commentaries on the Laws of England, by Justice Sir William Blackstone", William Draper Lewis, Dean of the Department of Law of the University of Pennsylvania, Geo T Bisel Co (1922). See also: "A Treatise on the Law of Citizenship in the United States", Prentiss Webster, Matthew Bender Law Book Publisher (1891) and "Allegiance and Citizenship.", George H Yeaman, Fritz Moller (1867)]

“And this maxim of the law proceeded upon a general principle, that every man owes natural allegiance where he is born, and cannot owe two such allegiances, or serve two masters, at once”

Nobody could conceivably see this as anything but a straightforward definition. The natural condition of birth is to have only one allegiance and under normal circumstances in the Common Law that allegiance will be owed to the Jurisdiction in which one is born. It also would tend to suggest that in Blackstone’s opinion dual allegiance/citizenship was, at the least, wrong in principle. However, Blackstone does not confine allegiance by pure ius soli for he also observes:

“Yet the children of the king’s embassadors born abroad were always held to be natural subjects: for as the father, though in a foreign country, owes not even a local allegiance to the prince to whom he is sent; so, with regard to the son also, he was held to be born under the king of England’s allegiance, represented by his father, the embassador.”

and

“To encourage also foreign commerce, it was enacted by statute 25 Edw. III. st. 2. that all children born abroad, provided both their parents were at the time of the birth in allegiance to the king, and the mother had passed the seas by her husband’s consent, might inherit as if born in England: and accordingly it hath been so adjudged in behalf of merchants. But by several more modern statutes these restrictions are still farther taken off: so that all children, born out of the king’s ligeance, whose fathers were natural-born subjects, are now natural-born subjects themselves, to all intents and purposes, without any exception; unless their said fathers were attainted, or banished beyond sea, for high treason; or were then in the service of a prince at enmity with Great Britain”

In short, Blackstone is giving a sequence of meaning in the Common Law.

1) If you are born in a given Common Law Jurisdiction the Natural Condition is that you owe a sole Allegiance to that Jurisdiction. See: Calvin’s Case (1608)

2) If you are the child of an “embassador” (elsewhere it is stipulated that this includes the children of Military Officers on duty abroad) you owe Natural Allegiance to the Jurisdiction from which the “embassador” comes.

3) If you are born abroad but both of your parents belong to the same Common Law Jurisdiction you also belong to that Jurisdiction as a Natural Condition.

4) If you are born abroad you belong to your father’s Jurisdiction within the Common Law as a Natural Condition.

It does not take a genius to see that (3) is identical to the Law of 1790. The purpose, in terms of intention, of that Law was to point out that the United States recognized the Common Law on Citizenship up to (3) but not necessarily (4).

But of course Blackstone was an English Judge so his opinion could not impact on the USA, right? And there is the XIVth Amendment to consider, right?

Justice Noah Haynes Swayne was around when they wrote the XIVth Amendment and the Equal Rights Act of 1866 and in 1866 he said this:

“All persons born in the Allegiance of the King are Natural- Born Subjects, and all persons born in the Allegiance of the United States are Natural-Born Citizens. Birth and Allegiance go together. Such is the Rule of the Common Law, and it is the Common Law of this country…since as before the Revolution.”

There are people who say Swayne wasn’t talking about the natural-born citizen clause per se and, of course, they are right but his quote was used as definitive in “The Judicial and Statutory Definition of Words and Phrases, collected, edited and compiled by Members of the Editorial Staff of the National Reporter System”, West Publishing Company, St Paul (1904) so it cannot be ignored.

The Congressional Report of June 22nd, 1874 said the “United States have not recognized a double allegiance.” That is a pure and absolute reflection of Blackstone.

Today the US State Department says:

“However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country.”

And:

“The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law”

At around the same time the XIVth Amendment was written Lord Mackenzie, a Justice of the Scottish Court of Session, wrote this in “Studies in Roman Law: with Comparative Views of the Laws of England, France and Scotland” William Blackwood and Sons (1870):

“As naturalisation involves the acquisition of a new national character, it ought to be accompanied with the loss of the old. In principle, no one should be a citizen of two nations at the same time, because, in the event of a war arising between them, he would be involved in conflicting duties by a divided allegiance. Yet, with singular inconsistency, some of the states which readily admit foreigners as citizens, strenuously insist on the perpetual allegiance of their own subjects.

Discordant in Britain, as well as in America, allegiance is regarded as a perpetual obligation, or at least one that cannot be renounced or dissolved without the mutual consent of sovereign and subject.”

Sir Alexander Cockburn, Lord Chief Justice of England, wrote “Nationality: Or the Law relating to Subjects and Aliens considered with a view to Future Legislation”, William Ridgway (1869) and I recommend you to read what he has to say.

Madison says this:

“United States Attorney General, George Williams, whom was a U.S. Senator aligned with Radical Republicans during the drafting of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866, ruled in 1873 the word “jurisdiction” under the Fourteenth Amendment “must be understood to mean absolute and complete jurisdiction, such as the United States had over its citizens before the adoption of this amendment.” He added, “Political and military rights and duties” do not pertain to anyone else.

Essentially then, “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means the same jurisdiction the United States exercises over its own citizens, i.e., only citizens of the United States come within its operation since citizens of the United States do not owe allegiance to some other nation at the same time they do the United States. This makes a great deal of sense for the time because there was a great deal of controversy over conflicts arising from double allegiances.”

And, more importantly:

“The adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment obviously affects how we view natural-born citizens because for the first time there is a national rule of who may by birth be a citizen of the United States. Who may be born citizens of the States is conditional upon being born “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States. The legislative definition of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” was defined as “Not owing allegiance to anybody else.””

Granted, that to me Madison’s argument appears to be somewhat twisted, it still tends to the same result as mine and harmonizes the natural-born citizen clause and the XIVth Amendment very nicely.

So what am I saying, by giving all of these quotes?

“Natural-born citizen” is a Common Law concept of the type known as “a term of art”. There are innumerable references to it and to its older cognate “natural-born subject”. In essence, a natural-born citizen is an individual born with only one, single, undivided allegiance or loyalty and who is, and has always been, subject to only one legal jurisdiction. There is not, and has never been, any real doubt that this is true and correct. The term itself is not vague, it is in fact, provably, quite precise and anybody who attempts to deny that is fudging the issue because they have an agenda.

Anybody born in territory over which the United States claims legal jurisdiction, at the time of birth, and both of whose parents are United States Citizens is inter alia, and by definition, a natural-born citizen of the USA.

Anybody born abroad of two US Citizen patents is a natural-born citizen, if they are born in a country which does not use ius soli law on birthright, if they are the child of a diplomat, or if the country in which they are born does not for whatever reason assert jurisdiction over them. A secondary condition is that the individual must not have been expatriated by any legal process.

The natural-born citizen cannot have acquired their citizenship by any form of legal action (other than simple registration of birth), it must be acquired by nature, ie the act of birth.

Anyone else inter alia, and by definition, though they be born a Citizen under the XIVth Amendment but of parents of differing allegiance, is not and cannot be a natural-born citizen.

Under USC Title 8, 1448, Section 337 a person who is to be naturalized as a citizen, must take the Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America and renounce allegiance and fidelity to any foreign state, etc. A person can not swear allegiance to the USA and owe allegiance to any political entity other than the USA. Yet under the Constitution and the Common Law a naturalized citizen may not hold the Offices of POTUS and VPOTUS by virtue of defect of allegiance, in that their allegiance is not held by simple birth, and due to “the appearance of Foreign Allegiance”. That this applies also in other Common Law jurisdictions may be determined by reading “The Annotated Constitution of the Australian Commonwealth”, John Quick, LLD & Robert Randolph Garran MA, Angus & Robertson (1901) and by reference to Sue vs Hill. One may also consider the Canadian position on Michaëlle Jean, John Turner, and Stephane Dion.

If a naturalized citizen is Ineligible for the Office of POTUS it follows axiomatically that an individual who has dual allegiance must also be Ineligible. The XIVth Amendment’s equal protection clause can lead to no other conclusion. Neither could any renunciation of that dual allegiance, or automatic lapse of it, be sufficient to change that position, nor could it be pled that no act of volition was involved in the acquisition of that dual allegiance be entertained for inter alia, and by definition, natural-born citizenship itself cannot be acquired by act of will, or by statute.

The so called ‘Grandfather clause” exempted the Founders and Framers themselves from the natural-born requirement. The XIVth Amendment established the basic citizenship rights of former slaves, former CSA citizens, and the many thousands of former Citizens of France, Spain, Mexico, Britain, Russia, Texas and California and their children who lived in territories which had been absorbed by the USA during the 19th century. Nobody living today is covered by these clauses.

Basically this is my position and Donofrio’s in a nutshell. It is sufficiently straightforward and sufficiently well grounded in the Common Law for the Justices of the Supreme Court to Conference on it. They could decide to dismiss, and I think that there is a very high probability that they will, but those who have recently described it using such terms as “batshit insane” or “ill informed, faux-legal, moonbattery” have been proven utterly mistaken in their view by that single fact. The SCOTUS doesn’t Conference for frivolous issues.

Having established what a natural-born citizen is we must now consider how that affects the position of Calero, BHO II, and McCain.

Calero is no problem, he is admitted not to be a natural-born citizen. Logically, he should never have been on the ballot in the first place. “A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language”, Noah Webster, Hudson & Goodwin (1806) might even suggest that, in the English language as used by the Framers, a person who is legally incapable of holding the Office of POTUS is also legally incapable of being a candidate for the Office, simply because they can never legally become, or be elected POTUS.

McCain has produced his Long Form Birth Certificate and other relevant documents. There is, and can be, no doubt that he was not born in the United States. He was not born in the hospital at Coco Solo Naval Base because it had yet to be built at the time of his birth. Even had he been, US Bases abroad are not, in most cases, according to the State Department considered to be US Territory. Nor was he born in the Panama Canal Zone under American Sovereignty. He was born in the City of Colon, in the Republic of Panama. Equally there is no question that both of his parents were US citizens by birth, present in Panama because his father was on Naval Service for the USA and that his grandfather was also on Naval Service there, and was, in fact the Commanding Officer of the US Forces in the area. One is left with the following questions:

1. Is McCain simply covered by the conditions laid down by Blackstone and the Law of 1790?

2. Is McCain a so called “Derivative Citizen” because the Framers required to clarify their meaning by passing the Law of 1790?

3. Was McCain born bipatride because of Panamanian Law?

Most authorities, including Aleinikoff, Tribe and Olson, have concluded that McCain is a citizen by birth under the Common Law and that said citizenship is not derivative but is covered by the “embassador” principle as laid down by Blackstone. There is certainly no question that both of his parents were under US jurisdiction and had no other allegiance of any kind, whatsoever.

The issue of dual citizenship however is more complex. Panama uses ius soli and maintains that anybody born in Panama has birthright citizenship. Under the Panamanian Code McCain would have lost that citizenship, if he ever had it, when he joined the US Navy. So the question can only be resolved by establishing if the Republic of Panama ever claimed jurisdiction over him, or allegiance from him. I do not know the answer and I wouldn’t mind betting that McCain doesn’t either. A court would need to investigate this to reach a sound determination because the Senate Resolution proves absolutely nothing and isn’t worth the paper it is printed on in legal terms. It is in fact an agreement by the Senate that they will ignore the Constitution, the US Code, the Panamanian Code and Constitution and International Law. As I said, BHO II is a symptom and not the disease.

BHO II is a much more straightforward case. Let us assume for the purposes of this article that the information on the so called “COLB” is correct, truthfully we have no evidence that it is not, though equally we have no evidence that it is, and even under Hawaiian State Law such an abstract is regarded as insufficient to fully establish one’s status in law. BHO II’s own surrogates have freely admitted that he was born bipatride under the UK Nationality Act of 1948 and that in virtue of his father he was a United Kingdom and Colonies Citizen and a Subject of the British Crown at birth. That would have been true had he been born on the moon. Assuming that he was born in Hawaii, BHO II was born a US Citizen under ius soli also. No act of volition was required in either event. Thus he was first a Subject of the British Crown and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies and second a citizen of the USA. Had he been born outside the USA under the law as it stood in August of 1961 he could have been a US Citizen only if his mother was unmarried, we shall not discuss that issue here but it does demonstrate the secondary nature of the US citizenship.

I fully endorse what Madison has to say on this point:

“Therefore, we can say with confidence that a natural-born citizen of the United States means those persons born whose father the United States already has an established jurisdiction over, i.e., born to father’s who are themselves citizens of the United States. A person who had been born under a double allegiance cannot be said to be a natural-born citizen of the United States because such status is not recognized (only in fiction of law). A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father.”

I should point out here that I find the sexist nature of the law on this point really rather offensive and utterly unfair but that I accept that it is the law both nationally and internationally, it is embodied, so far as I can see, in the Hague Convention of 1930.

Under Chapter VI. Section 87, of the Constitution of Kenya Barack Hussein Obama, Sr, became a Kenyan citizen on December 12th 1963. This is a simple legal fact which cannot be denied. BHO II also became a Kenyan citizen on December 12th 1963 under Section 97. of the Kenyan Constitution. Under the same section it would appear that he remained a Kenyan citizen in the view of the Kenyan Government until he was 21 years old, ie August 1982. At that time if he did not take the Kenyan Oath of Allegiance, renounce all other citizenships, and complete various paperwork his Kenyan citizenship automatically lapsed.

This succession of UK & C to Kenyan citizenship and passage of allegiance from the British Crown to the Kenyan Republic is, I think now, the creation of a derivative citizenship, rather in the nature of Washington becoming a US citizen in 1776. However, I’m not absolutely sure. Again it would need to be argued in court.

I shall be looking at more general citizenship issues in the next article, including the Indonesian angle, but this article was on the natural-born issue.

Naturalized Citizens are excluded from Eligibility on the basis that because, through no fault or voluntary action on their part, their Allegiance is not complete or is not held by virtue of birth. This in spite of the fact that they have voluntarily undertaken the Oath of Allegiance. Under Section 1 of the XIVth Amendment:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

Explain to me how a Naturalized Citizen can be deprived of the Right to hold the Offices of POTUS and VPOTUS and yet a Dual Citizen may not be deprived of that right without violating this Section of the XIVth Amendment. Governor Schwarzenegger did not ask to be born Austrian, Governor Granholm did not ask to be born Canadian, Governor Richardson did not ask to be born Dual Mexican American and former Senator (he isn’t President Elect yet) BHO II didn’t ask to be born Dual British Colonial American but if the first pair are not Eligible where is a logical argument, or a good legal argument that the second pair are?

Essentially one can only be sure that an individual born of 2 US Citizen Parents in the United States, or its Territories is a natural-born citizen. Anybody else is subject to debate. BHO II is not a natural-born citizen under the law and if one applies the views of John A Bingham:

“every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.”

Bingham was one of the Framers of the XIVth Amendment.

If you believe Blackstone, Swayne, Bingham, Mackenzie, etc, etc it is impossible to conclude that BHO II is a natural-born citizen and it is even possible to conclude that he isn’t a citizen under the Equal Rights Act of 1866 which said:

“All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens of the United States.”

or Section 1. of the XIVth Amendment:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

It isn’t possible to conclude that he is not a citizen by birth, if the document he has provided reflects accurately what it says on his long Form Certificate of Live Birth. It isn’t possible to conclude he is not a native citizen. It isn’t possible to conclude he doesn’t possess birthright citizenship. However, it isn’t possible to conclude he is a natural-born citizen.

Every serious person who has ever written on this topic has said the same thing that I have said, it needs to go before the Supreme Court.

I have been saying this for months, lawyers in four Common Law jurisdictions agree with my view, although all of them regard the case as a “poisoned chalice”. I’ll repeat what I said at the beginning and end of my first article:

What we are looking at in Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Jr’s, run for the Office of President is, among other things, I suspect, an end run around Article II of the Constitution of the United States. It is a Constitutional Lawyer’s trick to use the XIVth Amendment’s Equal Protection Clause to invalidate Article II.

NATURAL BORN = BORN (AND REMAINING) IN THE (SOLE) ALLEGIANCE OF THE USA, not born on US Soil. This is based on Laws which date back to at least 1337 before that to 1215 and fundamentally to the Norman Conquest of England in 1066, at the least.

BHO II is only a symptom, if it wasn’t him it would be Gov. Richardson or somebody else. People in the law and in Congress wanted to see The Equal Opportunity to Govern Amendment, otherwise known as The Hatch Amendment of 2003, passed, it reads:

“Section 1. A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been for 20 years a citizen of the United States, and who is otherwise eligible to the Office of President, is not ineligible to that Office by reason of not being a native born citizen of the United States.

Section 2. This article shall not take effect unless it has been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States not later than 7 years from the date of its submission to the States by the Congress.”

and would replace Article II’s natural-born citizen clause. Under this Amendment Schwarzenegger, Granholm, Martinez, etc, etc would be Eligible. I’d probably back it, were it to be passed clean and Bill Clinton favors it heavily, but I’d still have doubts about dual citizenship. What I object to is that the Constitution is being perverted and the law defied to produce the same effect.

Whether you use Article II with Jay’s letter, Blackstone, Swayne, etc and the Law of 1790 to show intention, which is what I believe you should do, or add the XIVth Amendment with the Act of 1866 as Madison does, you get the same result, BHO II is not a natural-born citizen. Neither is Governor Richardson, neither was Governor George Romney and it is possible that Senator McCain isn’t either. I suspect that if he were to be found Ineligible Congress would push for, and get, the Hatch Amendment passed and he would stand again in 2012. At that time I strongly suspect he would lose.

Having said all of this, and granting that Roberts, Alito, Scalia, Thomas and Kennedy are all either Federalists, or inclined towards the Federalist position, it is my belief that Donofrio’s case will probably not be heard because the whole issue is, as one of my legal friends in England called it “a poisoned chalice”. The Justices can follow the Law and risk calumny and civil disorder, or ignore the plain Common Law reading of the Constitution and risk usurpation and civil disorder.

[In the next article I shall look at the other problems surrounding BHO II's citizenship. These have either added an extra twist to any argument that he has natural-born status or bring his actual citizenship by birth into question.]

SEE THESE OTHER EXCLUSIVE ARTICLES ON THE TD BLOG:

It’s Not The Birth Certificate by TexasDarlin (11/21/08)

Four Questions for the Trojan Candidate by Dr. Kate (11/16/08)

Bring Back the Bull Moose! by Judah Benjamin (11/09/08)

Where Do We Go From Here? by Judah Benjamin (11/06/08)

Stampede by Judah Benjamin (11/01/08)

Hawaii Does Not Verify “Smears” COLB (Now GOTV) by TexasDarlin (11/1/08)

One Nation Divisible Under Obama, Not Indivisible Under God by Judah Benjamin (10/30/08)

Can You Say Reconstruction? by Judah Benjamin (10/26/08)

Berg Press Release: Appealing to the U.S. Supreme Ct. by TexasDarlin (10/25/08)

Berg Lawsuit Dismissed by TexasDarlin (10/25/08)

Bombshell!! by Judah Benjamin (10/21/08)

“Obama is Indonesian” (Is Anyone Investigating?) by TexasDarlin (10/19/08)

Okay, SO You Tell ME Where He Was Born by TexasDarlin (10/15/08)

Obama Born in Kenya? (New Information) by TexasDarlin (10/11/08)

Obama is Indonesian, UPDATE by TexasDarlin (9/30/08)

Obama is Indonesian by TexasDarlin (9/30/08)

*Breaking* Obama Admits Dual Citizenship by Judah Benjamin (9/25/08)

The Trojan Candidate by Dr. Kate (9/21/08)

Photo Documents Barry Soetoro: Indonesian Citizen, Muslim Religion by TexasDarlin (8/13/08)

Kenyan Citizenship Report Debunked by TexasDarlin (8/13/08)

Obama’s Dual Citizenship Disaster by TexasDarlin (8/10/08)

The Paper Trail: Obama’s Indonesian Background by Judah Benjamin (7/29/08)

Divided Loyalties: Obama’s Citizenship Problem, Part 2 by Judah Benjamin (7/25/08)

Divided Loyalties: Obama’s Citizenship Problem, Part 1 by Judah Benjamin (7/25/08)

282 Responses

  1. Okay folks – people who want to deal with the natural born citizen issue. Here are two supreme court cases that the Supreme Court should follow:

    1. US v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 649 (1898)
    2. Perkins v. ELG, 307 U.S. 325 (1939)

    Wong Kim Ark is the seminole Supreme Court case that explains the meaning of natural born citizen. The meaning is taken from English Common Law which is defined as the fundamental principle of birth in the allegiance.

    Perkins gives the examples of what is a citizen of the U.S. and what is a native born American citizen (or natural born citizen) Donofrio is right and Obama could never be a native/natural born citizen because his father is a foreigner (kenyan) and not a US citizen if Obama was born in Hawaii. The Court must consider Obama ineligible.


  2. Great article; one major problem. You wrote, “Initially we must turn to the Constitution itself. Clearly the Framers did not see themselves as being natural-born citizens. How could they, for to be a United States citizen by birth one would have to have been born subsequent to 1776, ie nobody over the age of nine could be a citizen by birth in 1787? For this reason they inserted the so-called Grandfather Clause. ” But this is untrue.

    The preamble to the U.S. Constitution, written in 1787 and ratified by all 13 states shortly thereafter, begins with these words: “We the people of the United States…” In other words, even before the Constitution became the law of the land, people did consider themselves to be citizens of the “United States.” And, considering that, the founders/drafters also inserted the 14-year residency clause; and that courts will interpret the words in a legal document in the first instance, according to their plain meaning and, in harmony with other language in the text; we must assume, this 14-year requirement has significance. So, what could it be? Well, the ’shot heard round the world’ at Concord and Lexington between the British and the Colonists, occurred in 1775. For some historians, this signaled the beginning of the American psyche. George Washington became our first President in 1789, 14 years after that first skirmish. Plus, the founders/drafters did not exempt themselves from that 14-year residency requirement. Why would they have grandfathered themselves under the “or a citizen at the time of the adoption of this Constitution” clause for the purpose of getting around the natural born citizen clause; and yet not have created a similar qualifier to get around the 14-year residency clause, if, in fact, you are right, and no one could be said to be a 14-year resident of the U.S. before 1802, or 14 years after the ratification of the Constitution?

    P.S. It seems that at least one of the authors you cited above who has explored expanding the eligibility for POTUS, has ties to BO.

    “Amending the Natural Born Citizen Requirement: Globalization as the Impetus and Obstacle” by Sarah P. Herlihy

    http://www.patriotbrigaderadio.com/barracks/index.php?topic=250.0


  3. Calumny is a lesser sin, especially when it seems to be so widespread that the reasonable thing to do would be dismiss a lot of it as the product of ignorance and media manipulation. Since you postulate civil division anyway, and I can’t think how somebody isn’t going to end up really angry over this case however it turns out, please let’s have calumny. Maybe later the worst perpetrators can be held for fraud. But it would hardly advance the country to allow usurpers.


  4. Really, I am somewhat surprised at the conclusion and maybe I misunderstood, but the Justices being wise men should know that to do nothing and fail to give the case and the issue a full hearing will effect their own credibility and the very essence of allegiance. There will cease to be any basis to justify citizens acting according to “law”. The best thing that they can do is to openly and publicly discuss the issue at length and point out that Richardson and McCain would not qualify and that while it is a regrettable problem and should have been properly addressed by those with the ability and authority to do so at a much earlier date, the commission of a mistake does not and cannot justify or permit the disregard of the Constitution, and as painful as it may be to many and as unfair as it may seem the law in our Nation is to be followed or law and authority will cease to have meaning.


  5. I understand most of this article from a definition standpoint.

    What I don’t understand though is why the SCOTUS would choose not to hear this case. They have to understand the legal implications on the Constitution if they let the usurper take the highest office of the land.

    Someone help me out. If we accept that Judah’s facts are correct and that his definition of natural born citizen would prohibit BHO from taking office – then why would the SCOTUS not hear this case? I’m confused.


  6. I’m not optimistic that people will take the time to understand Judah’s excellent article. Many will still come here and insist that anyone born in the US is automatically a “natural born citizen” even if they are dual citizens because of the foreign citizenship of one or both parents such as a child born in the US to illegal immigrants or to a father who is a UK citizen.


  7. Judah, well written and extremely informative article, as always. I think the proper emphasis has been placed, and that the issue can only be resolved by the Supreme Court. What you actually have described as well is a willful disregard of the constitution by lawmakers in Congress

    I just wonder why you concluded, after all this, that the Supreme Court would not hear Donofrio’s case? Especially if the Nicaraguan is such a clear cut case and egregious injustice? Is it pessimism, or do you really think the US Supreme Court will simply not take this case because it is a “poison chalice”? While the four justices mentioned are “federalists”, at least one (Roberts) is a “strict constitutionalist” and another (Thomas) is a believer in “natural law”. It would seem that this is a question “ripe” for discussion and clarification.

    The Supreme Court cases on segregation and many other issues have caused “civil disorder”, and the court took these cases knowingly. Seems like it would be “ducking” responsibilities, and certain impeachment, to knowingly allow an ineligible individual to take the oath.


  8. “Had he been born outside the USA under the law as it stood in August of 1961 he could have been a US Citizen only if his mother was unmarried.”

    Close, but not entirely true.

    According to the U.S. State Department, a child born outside of the U.S., “acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth”. For children born between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.”

    Ann Dunham Soetoro, was 18 at the time of Obama’s birth, so it was physically impossible for her to have spent five years “after the age of fourteen” anywhere.

    If in fact, BHO II, was born in Kenya, his mother did not transfer citizenship at birth to him.


  9. To jbjd

    I never said any of those things weren’t true, I simply said that they couldn’t have been US citizens by birth, or natural-born citizens unless born post 1776 and that is a simple matter of fact. So, no problem.

    As you say the 14 year requirement runs from 1776 and if you calculate on the basis 18th century lawyers used that takes you to 1789. Ask General George Washington. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. If only a natural-born citizen of 35 years could be President there could not have been a President before 1811. The fourteen year requirement took you to only 1789, they could have used 13 years but that would have introduced problems in itself that an even
    number didn’t.

    Oh yes, I’m well aware of Herlihy’s ties, that’s a part of my point. Not only does Obama know full well what I’ve said is true, his own cohorts admit it is. Indeed his old teacher Laurence Tribe admits, and teaches, the theory I have
    adumbrated.

    To Issues

    Actually Wong Kim Ark and Perkins are not germane to natural-born citizenship both refer to birthright citizenship and that isn’t the same thing. Neither is about Presidential Eligibility and natural-born is exclusive to that issue. To be a natural-born citizen you must be a birthright citizen but the reverse does not apply.


  10. It seems we are in need of a clear definition of “natural born” as this issue is bound to reoccur. Thus it seems essential that this is adjudicated now. It isn’t just BHO, but McCain, Richardson, and also Jindal. And there will be others in the future.

    It doesn’t appear that the court cases will cease to be filed any time soon. As much as they might like to avoid the Donofrio, there are many following on its heels.

    If they find BHO eligible, most of us won’t be happy about it, but at least we’d have our Constitution in one piece.

    Given your articles and others, I’d say the odds are not in his favor. Perhaps his goal is anarchy rather than leadership as he seems to be ill equipped for the later.


  11. Good work, Judah Benjamin. You are smarter than I.

    Read today that another case, this one from Connecticut, has been rejected by Justice Ginsburg.

    It was brought by a Mr. Wrotnowski for reasons similiar to Donofrio’s case.

    Mr. Wrotnowski intends on resubmitting, this time to Justice Scalia.


  12. Great article.

    Here is a video that explains the natural born issue as well.

    youtube.com/watch?v=GqH7rSHcvgU


  13. Free America, the problem with these legal cases that reach the SCOTUS, is this: generally, they are reviewed for abuse of discretion or error of law. So, the lower court record generally constrains what the SCOTUS will do. For example, Donofrio asked a lower court to order the NJ S of S to perform a specific function, that is, vet the candidate for POTUS as to Constitutional eligibility. (This is an action in mandamus.) The S of S, represented by the NJ AG, argued, nothing in NJ state law specifically requires such vetting. The lower court agreed. So, even if the SCOTUS engages in a discussion as to BO’s eligibility, it is unlikely this will sway their decision as to whether to hear the whole case. (Of course, entering into this discussion might be a sufficiently attractive intellectual exercise that the Justices do confer on that issue and, conclude BO (and JMc) are ineligible, while not ruling on that issue. And that ‘dicta’ is all we need to forestall an Electoral College vote for this ineligible wannabe.


  14. You are right that Donofrio’s case will be dismissed by the SCOTUS. The big problem, besides the defects in his suit under New Jersey law, is that McCain, Obama and Calero were not candidates for anything under Article II of the Constitution. We did not vote for president on November 4-we voted for electors. The actual presidential election will not occur until December 15, when the electors cast their ballots for president and vice-president. Thus even if the New Jersey Secretary of State had the duty under New Jersey law to verify the eligibility of New Jersey candidates, those candidates were the electors, not McCain, Obama or Calero.

    As envisioned by the Founding Fathers under Article II, the electors and the House of Representatives select the POTUS-thus they would have the obligation of verifying the eligibility of the candidates. However, noone has standing to bring suit against them in courts of law. If the drafters of the Constitution thought of it at all, they would have expected the electors and Congressman to cast their votes keeping the eligibility requirements for president in mind.

    Thus the issue of whether Obama is a “natural born” citizen is one which will likely be decided through the political process, not in the courts. It is unlikely enough electors can be convinced not to vote for Obama to deny him the presidency. Even if any GOP Congressman decides to challenge electoral votes for Obama on this basis, it is equally unlikely that Congress will deny him the presidency. As a practical matter, “natural born” citizen will be defined as including persons born in the United States to an American mother even if their father is a foreign national.

    If you don’t like that outcome, you can blame Hillary Clinton and the GOP. Obama did not hide the fact that Barack Obama Sr. was not a US citizen, so either Hillary Clinton or John McCain could have made an issue out of Obama’s Article II eligibility for the presidency. Neither of them did, and now 67 million Americans have expressed their opinion that Obama is qualified to be president as will about 365 electors on December 15. As you realize, the SCOTUS is not going to go out of its way to invalidate such a decisive determination by the American electorate. It didn’t achieve its current status by picking battles it may not be able to win or by creating, rather than alleviating, constitutional crises.


  15. Boilingfrogs: If Ann Dunham was unmarried at the time of Barack’s birth, and if he was born outside the country, the requirement is only 1 year after age 15 to be able to confer US citizenship on Barack.

    If Ann was married, she would have had the stiffer requirement and would not have been able to confer US citizenship on Obama, again IF he was born outside the US.

    Again, it is irrelevant where he was born. He has admitted dual citizenship at birth. And he still has Indonesian citizenship issue to deal with.


  16. [...] the legal ramifications surrounding the “natural born citizen” issue appeared today at TD Blog. (Also see The Federalist Blog)  Contributor Judah Benjamin at TD Blog states at the outset that: [...]


  17. Re: “it is my belief that Donofrio’s case will probably not be heard because the whole issue is, as one of my legal friends in England called it “a poisoned chalice”. The Justices can follow the Law and risk calumny and civil disorder, or ignore the plain Common Law reading of the Constitution and risk usurpation and civil disorder.”

    What about all the men and women who have died in battle to preserve our freedoms which are derived from the Constitution? If the Supreme Court dismisses the case on your reasoning, it will be a dishonor to those who gave the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

    If BHO is found ineligible and there are riots, no one is to blame except him for perpetrating this fraud. Last time I checked rioting was against the law and should be dealt with accordingly. The Second Amendment applies here.

    The SCOTUS is charged with upholding the laws of the Constitution. Period.


  18. Excellent article; I have posted about it at Steady Habits: http://is.gd/9szv


  19. Kentucky Boy. I think you completely misunderstand this article, and doubt you have read other Benjamin posts. Try reading some of the documents here, and the ones mentioned in this post, please. It would enhance your ability to contribute to a discussion.


  20. An article about ammending the Consitution in regard to the “Natural Born Citizen” requirement for Potus can be found at the link below:

    http://www.patriotbrigaderadio.com/barracks/index.php?topic=250.0

    The comment and article were posted by CreativeOgre, and discusses some of the players involved in championing this change who are linked to a Chicago law firm which appears to have ties to Obama.

    Below is the title of the posted article written by Sarah P. Herlihy, presenting arguments in favor of the change.

    “AMENDING THE NATURAL BORN CITIZEN REQUIREMENT: GLOBALIZATION AS THE IMPETUS AND THE OBSTACLE”
    SARAH P. HERLIHY


  21. You need to file suit!


  22. An Observer,

    Regular readers who pay attention know that our “Judah” took his name, as a tribute to BHO II, due to the dual citizenship status of Judah Benjamin.

    Please, if you are going to quote a reference, provide us with the citation to the source so others can go there and read too. Thank you.


  23. drkate,

    I have read some of J.B.’s other articles. It appears from his article that he is arguing that “natural born” citizen does not include a person whose father is a foreign national, even if he is born in the US to an American mother. What is it you think I have misunderstood?


  24. Kentucky boy, just a clarification. Some state laws require that the S of S must determine whether the candidate seeking to get his name onto the general election ballot satisfies the requirements for the office he seeks, thus making this vetting a ministerial duty. If she fails to carry out this duty, a citizen can initiate a legal action called mandamus, compelling her to do her job. Anyway, if the S of S determines the candidate is ineligible and refuses to certify his name to get onto the general election ballot then, no one in that state can vote for him. True, the electoral college can still cast their votes for him; but why would they, knowing he is ineligible for office?

    As for your comments that popularity is tantamount to vetting the candidate… While I absolutely accept that my fellow citizens have the right to vote for someone I believe is an incompetent impostor; I cannot tolerate that they endorse as President someone my research supports is Constitutionally ineligible for the job.


  25. Judah,

    I found your discourse to be quite enlightening; I always come away from reading your work with new insight, knowledge and curiosity. Which causes me to ponder your quoting Madison’s statement during the drafting of the fourteenth amendment, “must be understood to mean absolute and complete jurisdiction, such as the United States had over its citizens before the adoption of this amendment.” He added, “Political and military rights and duties” do not pertain to anyone else. If your alligence lies with more than one country than is your duty, or devotion of duty, not compromised in commitment and loyalty? I think if nothing else it would be suspect.

    Staying in that vein and I do not profess to be an attorney and therefore may be wrong in my interpretation of U.S. Federal law but; having just seen Barack Obama’s supposed Selective Service Registration form online: http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_did_n.html , I have arrived at three logical conclusions:

    1). If Barack Obama in fact failed to register for the draft back in 1979-1980 and he was a United States citizen he is in violation of Federal law.

    2). If Barack Obama did not register because he was not a United States citizen and not obligated to register, that of itself would make him ineligible to be POTUS?

    3). If someone forged the Selective Service registration document than that would be an act of fraud committed against the U.S. Federal government. I believe the perpetrators of such an act would be charged with felony.

    Here is the law and penalties for non-compliance as stipulated by the Selective Service System:

    Penalties for Failure to Register for the Draft

    Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:

    Federal Jobs – men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.

    Who Does NOT Have to Register for the Draft?

    Men who are not required to register with Selective Service include: nonimmigrant aliens in the U.S. on student, visitor, tourist, or diplomatic visas; men on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces; and cadets and midshipmen in the Service Academies and certain other U.S. military colleges. All other men must register upon reaching age 18 (or before age 26, if entering and taking up residence in the U.S. when already older than 18).

    I would think that this is a no win situation for Senator Obama, either way he would be ineligible for the presidency would he not? There is the possibility that Senator Obama at the time didn’t feel it was his responsibility to meet the obligation of military service. I was a conscript; I served my six years and was honorably discharged. I have no sympathy for Senator Obama only contempt for the man seeing how he either shrugged off his lawful requirement to at least register for the draft, or that he had the unmitigated gall to try and fake his registration in an attempt to show he was a citizen back then, knowing if he didn’t he would not be eligible for POTUS. The likely scenario is that Senator Obama did not register with the Selective Service not being a citizen of the United States he was not obligated to by law.

    With what little past history we have of the man, I wish someone would bring these discrepancies into question. There have been a lot of comparisons to the Third Reich and Adolf Hitler in regards to Senator Obama and may be rightfully so. Liken to Hitler and his staff of conspirators, they masterfully were able to work outside of the legalities that should have exposed Hitler and his henchmen for what they were. Witnesses that were in Germany and even those who served under him recall one thing about the man; No one was allowed to ask him any questions. The similarities are frighteningly reminiscent, we should be very concerned.


  26. Kentucky Boy,

    Your last sentence reads:

    It (SCOTUS) didn’t achieve its current status by picking battles it may not be able to win or by creating, rather than alleviating, constitutional crises.

    SCOTUS doesn’t wage battles, and it doesn’t create constitutional crises.

    SCOTUS has the sole and absolute authority to interpret the Constitution based on the Founders’ intentions supplemented by common law. That’s Judah’s pure point that you seem to overlook, or don’t want to accept. Their job is to resolve Constitutional crises, which are created when people or governments do things that challenge the Constitution. As a Constitutional lawyer, BHO II understands this better than 99.99% of the people who voted for him, and now has to answer for it.

    That’s the way the Founding Fathers constructed our Rule of Law society. We are, relatively speaking, a young nation. A baby really. Our constitution is still being applied and tested. This is just part of the process of evolving as a nation.


  27. To Judah Benjamin

    Read the cases. It is germane to the natural born citizenship issue. The cases define and give an example of the definition of natural born citizenship.

    The Supreme Court, through judicial review created in Marbury v. Madison in 1803, is charged with interpreting the LAW to the facts of the case before rendering the decision.

    The Supreme Court in these two cases have defined the term and it is controlling authority, not your logic. But the law as issued by the Supreme Court. I am a lawyer and this is how we have to present cases to the Supreme Court and other courts.


  28. Excellent article, Judah. I found the Federalist Blog a few days ago, and I concur with the theories that article and Donofrio present.

    However, I am more optimistic that SCOTUS might give Donofrio’s case a full hearing – to finally provide a clearer definition of natural born citizen. I feel that Justice Thomas distributing Leo’s case for conference – following the initial rejection by Justice Souter – is evidence that there just might four Justices who want to hear it.

    Regardless of whether Donofrio wins or loses, I think the millions of Americans who are concerned about this issue would feel much better if SCOTUS gives it the attention it deserves. I feel that simply rejecting Leo’s case out-of-hand would make many of us feel that BHO II had accomplished his end-run around the Constitution.


  29. Issues,

    If you are a lawyer, you must be capable of following Judah’s response to you about the two cases you cited. See his comment above. Clearly he has read them, and your tone is arrogant. One doesn’t need to be a lawyer to be a legal scholar, FYI.


  30. In other words, you predict the supreme court justices are going to be cowards and damn the constitution.

    If they do that, they will also lose credibility.

    If they do decide to take a pass and sooner or later it will come out Obama pulled a fast one and never should have been president, everything he has done will be null and void.

    You really think the justices would be willing to take that kind of risk?


  31. texasdarlin,

    The SCOTUS does not have the sole authority to interpret the Constitution-the legislative and executive branches and state governments also have to interpret the Constitution in the course of their duties.

    It is also not the primary duty of the SCOTUS to interpret the Constitution. Their primary duty is merely to adjudicate cases and controversies before them. If they can do so without ruling on constitutional issues, that is their preference.

    The Constitution does not explicitly grant the SCOTUS absolute authority to interpret the Constitution. It is authority the Court has claimed, but it was not always accepted that it had such authority, and that claim could be challenged again if it overreaches. That is one of the reasons the SCOTUS is extremely unlikely to rule on Obama’s eligibility to be president, especially since he would already be sworn in before the issue could be squarely before the Court, if a lawyer could find a way to get a case into that position. J.B. is correct in believing this is a “poisoned chalice” the Court would prefer not to address.


  32. To TexasDarlin:

    I understand your emotional standpoint to this. But understand this, this election of 2008 in this phase of it is a LEGAL ISSUE. That is why the Courts are involved. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But, understand in the practice of law and interpreting what the Supreme Court will hear, it is the UNAUTHORIZED PRACTICE of law that Judah Benjamin is doing to tell anyone what the S.Ct. will or will not hear or what they should or should not interpret. He is trying to provide legal advice to something that he/she actually has limited knowledge in.

    When you are sick and need medical attention, you go to a doctor to get well.

    When you are dealing with a LEGAL issue which this election is about in defining what is a natural born citizen under the Constitution, you need to get a LAWYER to let you know what the heck you are talking about. Is that arrogant enough for you? I hate to be condescending, but I want to make sure you guys to get caught up in you knowing everything that you don’t allow lawyers to help you clearly inform the public on what the Courts will do.


  33. td, your comment to Kentucky Boy points to another sinister aspect of this Constitutional debacle. Having taught Constitutional Law, BO had to know that while the Constitution requires the POTUS to be a natural born citizen, there is no provision of any state or federal law that requires any government actor to check. I tried to educate the public as to this lack of mandatory vetting, in a well-researched ‘legal’ memo I posted on RCP, twice but, each time, after receiving several votes – the first time I was moved to the front page in just a couple of hours – suddenly, POOF! I was disappeared. And now, I cannot even log in anymore.


  34. MORE INCRIMINATING EVIDENCE!!!

    Here’s 2 responses back from South Carolina and Connecticut for request for records:

    1) South Carolina: RESPONSE FROM SECRETARY OF STATE SOUTH CAROLINA: PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO PAGE 2 IN WHICH THE CHAIR OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF SOUTH CAROLINA [CAROL FOWLER] UNEQUIVOCALLY STATES THE CANDIDATES ALL QUALIFY FOR THE OFFICE IN WHICH THEY ARE RUNNING.

    2) Connecticut: RESPONSE FROM SECRETARY OF STATE OF Connecticut, IN WHICH SHE USES THE HAWAIIAN OFFICIALS PRESS CONFERENCE AS HER VETTING PROCESS OF OBAMA????!!! BIG PROBLEMS WITH THIS FOR HER. He was supposed to be vetted BEFORE he ran for office AND her statement about Hawaiian officials saying Obama was born in Hawaii and that they hold his original birth certificate is based on a PRESS CONFERENCE where Hawaii officials never said they verified he was born in Hawaii and they refused to answer if the original birth certificate they held was a Kenyan one or a Hawaiian one. AND THE PRESS CONFERENCE WAS IN NOVEMBER PER HER OWN ADMISSION – 3 MONTHS AFTER HE WAS DECLARED THE NOMINEE !!!

    CLICK HERE: SEE 2 DOCS:
    1. SEC OF STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA RESPONSE, 3 PAGES
    2. SEC OF STATE OF Connecticut RESPONSE, 1 PAGE

    http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/secretary-of-state-responses-in-regards-to-request-for-obama-records/


  35. Judah,

    If I understand your concluding statement, the Justices will risk either commiting slander–wrongdoing on their part–or enabling wrongful seizure of authority–wrongdoing by Obama.

    It is your belief they will do what is expedient–cover their own backs–rather than what is moral–perform their sworn duty to uphold the Constitution.

    Since from day one of the primaries through today this entire “election” has been a fraud perpertrated by individuals and/or groups with immense wealth and untold power, I fear that your conclusion is correct.

    But I pray, humbly and with every fiber of my body, mind, and soul, that you are wrong, that the Justices of the Supreme Dourt of the United States, will protect country before self. And let all reading here say, “Amen.”


  36. kentucky boy,

    point taken. I should have said that the SCOTUS has the “ultimate authority,” rather than sole and absolute.

    I never said, however, that this is SCOTUS’s only responsibility, and yes I’m aware that they prefer to adjudicate without having to resolve constitutional crises.

    As Judah pointed out, Congress cannot change the constitution, or override it with legislation. That can only be done via Amendment. In the meantime, if there’s a constitutional question that needs to be resolved, that is ultimately the SCOTUS’s responsibility.

    That said, I unfortunately agree with Judah that they will fail to do so in this case.


  37. Issues,

    I happen to know something about this subject. If you’re a lawyer, you should know this too.

    Unauthorized practice of law is when a non-lawyer provides legal advice to a person or persons in need of counsel.

    Are you suggesting that only licensed lawyers can be legal scholars, or have a legal opinion?

    Judah is not offering anyone legal advice. He’s offering the public his opinion of a legal problem. Any of us — even those blessed to not be lawyers — have that right.

    Shame on you.


  38. RE: Kentucky Boy & Issues -

    “The first thing we do – is kill all the lawyers!” William Shakespeare


  39. Ex Post Birth Certificates Available in Hawaii in 1961

    http://mitchell-langbert.blogspot.com/2008/11/ex-post-birth-certificates-available-in.html
    Who is Eligible to Apply for the Issuance of a Late Birth Certificate in Lieu of a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth?

    >The Certificate of Hawaiian Birth program was established in 1911, during the territorial era, to register a person born in Hawaii who was one year old or older and whose birth had not been previously registered in Hawaii. The Certificate of Hawaiian Birth Program was terminated in 1972, during the statehood era.


  40. Judah, thanks for another great article. I better understand the natural born issue now. I read the article by the woman (Herlilhy?) that is connected to Obama and thought it was badly written and that her arguments were childish. Here’s a snippet so you can judge for yourselves:

    “The natural born citizen requirement in Article II of the United States Constitution has been called the “stupidest provision” in the Constitution,1 “undecidedly un American,”2 “blatantly discriminatory,”3 and the “Constitution’s worst provision.”

    She also goes on to state that Article II prevents 12 million otherwise eligible citizens from running–can you imagine? She makes it sound like she knows personally an army of non-natural born citizens just ready to take off campaigning. God help us, could you imagine the spectacle?

    Anyway, I can’t help thinking as I read this that the Framers were correct in their thinking about natural born, and that natural born cannot exist with dual citizenships. Obama makes me think this. From what i can tell he was never particularly close to his Kenyan relatives, yet, as a presidential candidate, he goes there and meddles in their 2007 election, trying to get his “cousin” elected. Corsi claimed that Odinga received emails giving them advice from Obamas campaign.

    Well, we all know how well that turned out. When Odinga lost, he whipped up his muslim supporters hatred & they went on a crazed killing & destruction spree, aimed at the Christian Kikuyu tribe. The ran thru the Kikuyu villages burning and hacking as they went. I read different accounts of the death tolls and misplaced persons, but they numbered in the thousands. They burned down a church, that was filled with people! Anyway, the Kenyan govt had to give Odinga some kind of exec. post to stop the pillagings. This happened in January of this year!

    Anyway, our glorious one is now indelibly mixed up in this terrible tragedy. What will happen in the future? Will President Obama be able to deal with kenya in an unbiased way?


  41. On Dec 5 the Supreme Court will either allow or disallow the usurpation of both the Constitution and the Government of the United States — easily the most pivotal decision since our nation’s founding — and the silence of the news media is deafening (if not downright scary).


  42. I haven’t figured out whether obama is a citizen…but when does he start to pay my mortgage and gas?


  43. Loyalty is a key issue for natural born citizen in regards to Article II. It in effect, is a loyalty test. Is the person loyal to the US and solely loyal to the US?

    Obama went to school in Indonesia where the school and his teacher told him he was an Indonesian citizen, he was instructed in the Indonesian language only at school, and he was told that Indonesia was the center of his future by the school. Obama swore loyalty to Indonesia likely every day at school. His teacher told him he was Indonesian and solely Indonesian and did so in the Indonesian language.

    Those who say that the foreign born who go to school here are American should accept the contrary for Obama. Those who argue that those who go to school in America should be eligible should also accept that Obama went to school elsewhere as a citizen of Indonesia and to that extent is not eligible.

    Early schooling counts the most in loyalty and this is the original intent of the Constitution. The Constitution is saying the loyalty in the early years overrides any later loyalty if its not America in eligibility to be president.

    From this point of view, the fact that Obama was enrolled in an Indonesian school and told he was Indonesian by his teacher and his future and loyalty lay there is all that matters. Even if that was a mistake, the intent of the Constitution is that this type of upbringing is what the Constitution wants to avoid.

    Someone born in the US to US parents and raised in another country from birth and told they are citizens of that country and loyal to it should be considered ineligible to be president, even though they were kidnapped or their parents did it out of some disloyalty to the US.

    Article II was not written as instructions to the census bureau, but for the purpose of preventing someone raised elsewhere to think they are a citizen of another country to be president. Whether it was a mistake they were told that or not, they are not raised in the continuous sole loyalty in fact to the US.

    The Article II test is not a per se formal test only, but also a fact based test. If the fact is the person was raised as a citizen of another country for a time, then the Article II test is failed in fact, whether what the child was told was a mistake or not.

    When the child is instructed by the government of the country he resides in that language that he is a citizen of that country and loyal to it, at that point the Article II test says he can’t be president, whether the other country’s school is mistaken or not. Article II is not solely about paperwork in a government office, but how the child was actually raised. Obama was raised as a citizen of another country in that country and told in the language of that country at school by his teacher that he was a citizen of that country. That makes him ineligible to be US president.


  44. [...] http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/natural-born-citizens-or-how-to-beat-a-subject-to-death-... Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Obama leaves racist church so American can begin to deliverRoland Martin Needs His Head ExaminedWho is Barack Obama? Part 1Walking a mile in a liberal’s shoes [...]


  45. Judah is right, and the Supreme Court will refuse to act, although they will rule.
    According to our constitution, it is the Electors who are our safeguard against this happening.
    What needs to be done is for someone of us (please tell me it is already happening and give me the link) to organize to lobby our electors to NOT cast their votes for Obama – (there are many states where it is not against the law, and some states where the fine is only $1000 for a faithless elector – I’d be glad to donate).


  46. on November 29, 2008 at 11:12 am | Reply insightanalytical

    A bit off topic…is it true that Bill Richardson has a “dual citizenship” issue?

    I’m just wondering. I guess it doesn’t apply to any of his other positions he’s worked in and now at Commerce…but he did run for Prez and it wasn’t raised…

    By the way…I’m so glad he’s leaving NM, but not happy about Commerce. I think he’ll wind up with a lot of sneaky power and none of the media grief that Clinton will get as SOS.

    Commerce is quite a department. It will affect everything! And with Richardson being as sleazy as Obama…

    Bill Richardson at Commerce: Scary

    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/2008/11/29/bill-richardson-at-commerce-scary/


  47. An excellent and well researched opinion by Judah Benjamin and I will be looking forward to part two. In fact this blog has become one of my favorites since it stays on topic and has more people who “think” the issues rather than “feel” the issues. My personal perspective is that SCOTUS will act on this issue.

    The SC is an equal branch of govenment and to run from the difficult issues would weaken their position and strength going forward. Even though the individual Justices may have very real reservations relative to the impact of their decision, they must also consider the impact of running or hiding on the ongoing stature of the SCOTUS. The structure of our governent works becauses of the checks and balances that were established by our founding fathers. The Justices will see this issue as paramount as they consider the elgibility question and will frame their opinion for a likely future constitutional amendment. Our government still works and the SC will act to clarify this issue. TD thanks for maintaining and moderating this blog. //M-P


  48. Remember, if the public starts to believe that a president will be a one term president, then that president’s power will become weak.

    So, if the public starts to believe that Obama will be a one term president, Obama will be a very weak president.

    **********

    Let’s suppose—and a lot of people say it will happen—-that on Dec. 5, 2008, a few days from now, the Supreme Court dismisses ALL the cases that question Obama’s eligibility to be president, and Obama becomes president on Jan. 20, 2009.

    1. Does anyone here really believe that such a Supreme Court decision will put Obama’s eligibility issue to rest forever and ever, like the Supreme Court decision in the Gore vs. Bush presidential race case back in 2000 finally put the Gore vs. Bush case to rest?

    2. Of course not.

    3. In fact, I say that over the next four years of Obama’s first term, there will be growing and tremendous pressure on Obama to finally reveal his Hawaii long form birth certificate—the one with the doctor and hospital name on it—-and to allow his birth hospital to release his birth records from Aug. 4, 1961.

    4. What about the name of Obama’s Hawaii birth hospital?

    5. I have no doubt that in the next four years, someone, like the National Enquirer, will verify which hospital Obama was born in, even if Obama continues to stonewall when it comes to naming his Hawaii birth hospital and when it comes to releasing his birth hospital records.

    6. NOTE: Let’s pretend that it is now Jan. 2012, the beginning of primary season for presidential campaigns: Obama has been in office 3 years.

    7. Supreme Court 2012: Do you really think that the 2008 Supreme Court wants to go through this Obama eligibility fiasco again in 2012? I don’t think so.

    8. NOTE: As I understand it, there is a strong possibility that President Obama may have the chance to nominate one or more new Supreme Court justices in the next 4 years, so the Supreme Court we see today may look a lot different in 2012, and it may tend to side with Obama on certain issues, like presidential eligibility issues.

    9. However, I wonder if present Supreme Court justices who will still be there in 2012 will want to go through this 2008 Obama eligibility fiasco again in 2012.

    10. Maybe this 2008 Supreme Court will say that enough is enough, and it will pass on the Obama lawsuits to the next stage, where the court will listen to oral arguments from both sides..

    11. But, on second thought, the 2012 Supreme Court may not be forced to deal again with several lawsuits that question Obama’s 2012 eligibility to be President, for the following reasons:

    a. By 2012, I believe that there will be several legal steps or government layers installed where a candidate must prove that he is eligible to be president.

    b. For instance, there will be tremendous pressure on political parties to investigate candidates very thoroughly, that is, a candidate will be required to provide at least a long form birth certificate, the one with the doctor and hospital name on it.

    c. Also, and this is very important, political parties, such as the Democratic and Republican parties, will insist that the candidates allow the birth certificate to become part of the public record, where anyone can see and examine it.

    d. In addition, each of the 57 states (Obama said there were 57 states, so who am I to disagree with him?) will pass laws that require a presidential candidate to provide a long form birth certificate, the one with the doctor and birth hospital name on it, before his name can be placed on the primary ballot and the final presidential ballot.

    e. Each of the 50 states will also demand that the birth certificate
    become part of the public record, where anyone can examine it upon request.

    f. Congress might even step in and require presidential candidates to provide long form birth certificates—the one with the doctor and birth hospital name on it—before it allows a candidate to run for president.

    g. Also, the state and federal governments will require that candidates sign papers where they agree to provide any documents requested by the state or federal governments, such as college records and selective service registration cards.

    12, In my opinion, I don’t see Obama getting on the 2012 primaries ballots unless he can present his Hawaii long form birth certificate, the one with the doctor and hospital names on it.

    As I see it, the public will be outraged in 2012 if Obama tries to get on a primary ballot without releasing his Hawaii long form birth certificate—-the one with the doctor and birth hospital name on it.

    13. College Records: Also, I don’t see how Obama can continue to stonewall the public over the next 4 years when the public demands over and over again to see his college records, especially when the public vehemently demands to see Obama’s college records during the 2012 presidential campaign.

    14. So as I see it, Obama will be a one term president, because what the public let Obama get away with in 2008, they won’t let him get away in 2012, no matter how many high-priced lawyers he hires to help him.
    *******

    Remember, if the public starts to believe that a president will be a one term president, then that president’s power will become weak.

    So, if the public starts to believe that Obama will be a one term president, Obama will be a very weak president.


  49. I don’t understand someone going to the length that JB has gone into on this one point and then offering an opinion on what the supreme court will do is really germane. I think that TD had the right direction stating don’t make a judgment based on one item, at that time it was the BC or COLB. I also don’t understand the lack of comments on the mother being 18 years of age, then why she didn’t wait till after she vetted a Pakistan trip influence and any Indonesian connection that might have a bearing. I think the courts would be smart enough to do a collective conclusion rather than singular. It almost sounds like a liberal collective effort to singularly dismissing each BO problem so then all can be dismissed without adjudicating collectively. First you discredit the BC or COLB issue, then you discredit the citizen issue, then she doesn’t mention the age problem, then she discredits how he went to Pakistan, then Indonesian, then WOW BO is fee and clear and why should the supreme court do anything.


  50. Mitchell langbert, Nov. 29, 4:97 am:

    I don’t understand how the Hawaii law you cite applies to the birth
    of infant Obama.

    As I understand it, Obama was only a few days old when his birth was registered.

    However, the Hawaii law you cite seems to say that it applies to persons one year old or older. That is, I don’t see how it applies to Obama.

    So, again, could you please explain how the Hawaii law you cite applies to the birth of infant Obama? Thanks.


  51. Old Atlantic. Well reasoned, and I agree.

    It is not over yet, and won’t be until this issue with Obama is resolved. Millions of people will NOT go away, no matter how much we are laughed at and ridiculed for caring enough about our country to not want a usurper in the WH.


  52. It seems obvious that I didn’t quite make myself clear on a couple of points.

    1. I fully believe that the SCOTUS should hear the Donofrio case and reach a determination. I am sure that that is the right thing to do and I believe, as all the people who have looked into the question from both sides over a century and a half have concluded, that only the SCOTUS can finally clear the whole issue of the natural-born citizen clause of Article II up. However I have, to a large degree, lost my faith that the Justices will have the moral courage to do so in the face of a clearly expressed popular view which is contrary to the Supreme Law of the Land. I hope I’m wrong and I’d guess BHO II hopes I’m right on this point.

    2. Kentucky boy. You have put the argument very succinctly, but what you and others seem to fail to observe is that I am giving a historical overview based on various legal sources I am not propounding any novel legal doctrine or theory of my own. I would not be qualified so to do and I haven’t done so. Even those who are opposed to the very existence of the natural-born citizen clause agree on what it means. Those who oppose the natural-born clause simply claim that it is pernicious or even egregious that such a clause should still be present in the Constitution. All that I have said is there in the sources that I have quoted, I simply abstracted it and I am not responsible for it. BHO II is a Constitutional Lawyer and knows these arguments exist, therefore by standing he knew that he was causing a massive Constitutional problem. To my eyes, that in itself should disqualify him from standing. Lawyers aren’t the only ones who read Law and not everybody who studies Law is a lawyer. I am stating my opinion, based on an overview of various legal opinions of the past several hundred years of the Common Law, I’m not a lawyer cannot tender advice to others and most certainly not licensed to practice law but I do know the history. I also happen to be entitled to my own opinion as an enlightened layperson.

    3. I would fully support an Amendment to replace the natural-born citizen clause but at this time it is the Supreme Law of the Land and as such all members of the Executive, Legislative and Judicial Branches of the Government, Federal or State, should enforce it. So far as I am concerned any person in authority who does not do so is derogate in their duty and quite possibly guilty of misfeasance and misprision. This includes at least one Associate Justice of the Supreme Court.

    4. Should I acquiesce if 58% of the population vote to re-introduce Religious Tests for Office? Or, if 58% of the population vote to make alcohol illegal in the USA, or to make homosexual activity a felony? If the answer to these questions is no, then ask yourself why I would be likely to agree to the election to the Office of POTUS of a man I perceive as Ineligible?

    To say that 58% (btw that figure is wildly incorrect it is closer to 35%) of the electorate voted for Obama therefore no-one should challenge his Eligibility is just plain wrong. If one had applied that principle in 1776 I suspect the USA might not exist. If one had applied it in 1860 there is a very good chance Slavery, a vile and barbaric institution, might still be with us. If one had applied it in 1920 women wouldn’t have the vote, etc, etc. The argument is inter alia, and by definition, egregiously wrong. This country has the form of a Constitutional Republic because the Founders and Framers were opposed to Mob Rule and kentucky boy’s argument is one for Mob Rule. It takes time to achieve an Amendment and that is because the Framers did not want things to work on a one stop basis and I think they were right, a single vote in one year tends to yield bad, or unpredictable results. The XXVIIth Amendment was proposed in 1789, it was ratified in 1992. I’d rather like to see an Article V Constitutional Convention to put in various corrections to the Constitution but I don’t expect to see one in my lifetime.

    Let me ask a question, have you always been happy with the Presidents elected during your lifetime? Was it enough for you that the majority supported them? A lot of people weren’t and aren’t happy with George W Bush, a lot weren’t happy with James Earl Carter, or William Jefferson Clinton and what about Richard Milhouse Nixon? Is the right person always chosen? A majority can get it wrong and this time I think they’ve screwed up even worse than usual. Not that it matters much because even if McCain had won the election the problem would still exist, it just wouldn’t be as severe. If you complained about GWB breaking the Constitution, or Jimmy Carter doing so, how can you support BHO II? Both of them won elections. I’m not going into the 2000 fiasco that so damaged the USA’s reputation Foreign and Domestic, in 2004 GWB won, end of discussion. What about Gerald Ford? He never won election to VPOTUS or POTUS, you can thank the XXVth Amendment for him. Popular vote isn’t everything and it isn’t the only route to the Presidency either.

    I have two more articles on the way. I’d guess there are people out there who won’t like them, that’s fine by me. The Ist Amendment protects their Rights too. Mind you, I would like to know how the Ist Amendment jibes with recent interpretations on “Standing”. How does one “petition the Government for a redress of grievances” if none of the three branches will hear a petition? And do not certain groups currently act in such a way as to cause one to suspect that “abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press” is in fact their aim? Of course that doesn’t matter because nobody has standing to complain and it isn’t anyone’s duty to investigate anyway, according to a large number of officials and judges.


  53. on November 29, 2008 at 1:01 pm | Reply Judah Benjamin

    To Issues

    If you are indeed a lawyer then please explain to my why you are citing Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939) which explicitly deals with loss of US citizenship connected with the possession of Swedish citizenship, and is a Bancroft Treaty case besides, and has nothing to do with natural-born status at all. Likewise United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) has regard to the issue of denial of citizenship to those of ius soli status, ie birthright citizenship:

    “As for the question of being “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States — i.e., the relationship between a person and a government whereby one “owes obedience to the laws of that government, and may be punished for treason or other crimes” — the Supreme Court observed that English common law (legal tradition inherited from Britain by the US) had long recognized only two jurisdictional exceptions to the principle of ius soli (citizenship by birth on a country’s soil): namely, (a) foreign diplomats, and (b) enemy forces in hostile occupation of a portion of the country’s territory. Since neither of the above exceptions applied to Wong Kim Ark’s parents, the court held that he was unquestionably a US citizen by virtue of his having been born in the US.”

    This might counteract Madison’s argument but it doesn’t affect mine. I don’t think Volokh would agree with this judgment, and quite clearly Bingham didn’t. However it leaves a problem because a UK & C Citizen under the 1948 Act would unquestionably have been liable to prosecution for treason in an English Court. It also leaves Mackenzie’s statement intact. I have always taken the view that the XIVth Amendment really has little to do with the issue and included it here for the sake of being thorough.

    You would have done better to cite Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717 (1952), Mandoli v. Acheson, 344 U.S. 133 (1952), or Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967). Truthfully they wouldn’t have been relevant either and could have brought up Savorgnan v. United States, 338 U.S. 491 (1950), Perez v. Brownell, 356 U.S. 44 (1958), Miller v. Albright, 523 U.S. 420 (1998) or even Mackenzie v. Hare, 239 U.S. 299 (1915), etc. Of course Miller might be devastating to McCain because Scalia and Thomas held that the citizenship of those born overseas is derivative by definition.

    Since I have at no point in this article argued that Obama either is not a citizen by birth or that he has lost his citizenship none of these cases are relevant to my central argument. If you are a lawyer you know this and you also know full well that I am not practicing Law without a License in writing articles and tendering a historical opinion on law. I haven’t filed a suit and I haven’t communicated directly with anybody who has, to the best of my knowledge and belief.


  54. on November 29, 2008 at 1:05 pm | Reply Judah Benjamin

    To Issues Part two

    I forgot to mention the following.

    1. Under the First Amendment I, or any other person affected by it, may offer any opinion we wish as regards what the Supreme Court will, or will not, do or say. We may also offer any opinion with regard to what they should, or should not do or say. We may also give our own interpretation of the law, provided that those of us who are not lawyers stipulate clearly that that is the case. I have done so repeatedly. You can only claim Unauthorized Practice of Law if:

    (a) The Individual in question has claimed to offer counsel in law to someone who seeks it under color of being a lawyer, or (b) Such person asserts while offering counsel to those in need of it that their counsel will suffice in place of that of a lawyer. I haven’t done any of these things I have offered an opinion based on a historical study of the law and referred people to numerous sources whereby they may determine for themselves whether my view is correct or not. Nobody may instruct the Supreme Court as to what determination they may or may not make. Nor may you instruct me in what my views should be, based upon some supposed superiority which you may, or may not possess.

    My definition of a lawyer is one who practices law and who holds a license so to do. I do not fit either category and therefore I am not a lawyer in my own view. I have never had the inclination to study, for example the Federal Rules of Civil, or Criminal, Procedure. I don’t hold a JD either and I never took the Bar. This makes me somewhat of a black sheep in my family. I was intended for a lawyer but I became a historian, a journalist and a couple of other things instead. It didn’t stop me from studying Law. Lawyers are not gods and some of us know full well how to read Case Law and Constitutional Law without being lawyers.

    2. If you are yourself a lawyer I can only assure you that I, personally, would not consult you because your grasp of these very simple points seems remarkably weak. Fortunately I would never have to do so.

    3. If you are indeed a lawyer, I would most humbly suggest that you try a little reading on the natural-born issue. I would also suggest that you give due consideration to the fact that the quote I gave on Wong Kim Ark shows that the court in that case was wrong on the subject of citizenship in Common Law, according to Blackstone, Mackenzie, Cockburn, Swayne, Bingham, et al and wrong about the meaning of the XIVth Amendment according to two of its Framers and the Congressional Report of 1874. Among other reasons that is why I wouldn’t use a case citation for it even if it were germane, which your opinion and that of generations of law students aside, I do not believe it is.

    4. Were I sick I would be as likely to consult a Vet, a Shaman, or a Faith Healer as many of the Licensed and Accredited Medical Practioners I am acquainted with. In my experience the mere possession of a University Degree in any given subject is no proof of competence or knowledge. I have known Physicians to fail to identify Megaloblastic Pernicious Anemia for a quarter of a century, to fail to identify Tick-Borne Encephalitis and Blackwater Fever and to diagnose both as Influenza. I have also seen Pulmonary Tuberculosis misdiagnosed as Carcinoma Bronchus. I could go on, I’m not overwhelmingly impressed by either modern lawyers or modern medics.

    I imagine the best weasel move for the SCOTUS would be to say simply that since dual-nationality does not have any legal existence in the US Code it cannot have any impact on Article II. A weak argument, to be sure, but valid. They could then pass the buck back to Congress.

    Having said all of that could you please explain why you think that natural-born citizen and citizen by birth are the same thing? When you have done that please explain why a Constitutional Law Lecturer would agree with your view?

    Since I know beyond doubt that there are lawyers who agree with my view and have yet to meet with one who had studied the issue who didn’t I would love to see your reasoning. The only stipulation being that it must be firmly based on Common Law and the theory of natural-born citizenship and not on immigration law and citizenship by birth.


  55. I am convinced the Supreme Court will not hear these cases. To do so would create the slippery slope whereby anchor babies’ citizenship could be challenged. That would open a new can of worms.


  56. JB, I have an idea as to how to satisfy the federal court’s pronouncement against Petitioner’s standing, tailor made to contest the issues BO raised in his answer to Berg’s suit, for example. Can you email me?


  57. My apologies if someone has already reported this news although I didn’t expect anything else form Ginsburg.

    Wrotnowski’s SCOTUS case thrown out.

    11/26/08 – Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg quickly denies Wrotnowski’s application for stay one day after it was submitted to the United States Supreme Court.

    http://americamustknow.com/default.aspx


  58. Again, my apologies if someone already posted this but I love it so much, I couldn’t help myself. I hope the Justices get a copy. This ought to send some smoke into Obama’s “killer bees” hive.

    Don’t Miss Next Week’s Chicago Tribune
    Full-Page Citizenship Challenge To Run Twice,
    December 1st and 3rd

    D.C. National Press Club Event: Dec 8th

    Our full-page Open Letter to Mr. Obama will be published in the Chicago Tribune on both Monday, December 1, 2008 and Wednesday, December 3, 2008. It will appear in the main news section. Click here to view a copy of the final ad.

    Chicago is Mr. Obama’s hometown. His transition team is operating out of the Kluczynski Federal Building in downtown Chicago. He is known to be a regular reader of the Tribune, Chicago’s principal newspaper, with a daily circulation of over a half-million readers.

    The Open Letter to Mr. Obama is a formal Petition for a Redress (Remedy) for the alleged violation of the “natural born citizen” clause of the Constitution of the United States of America.

    Mr. Obama is respectfully requested to direct the Hawaiian officials to provide access to his original birth certificate on December 5-7 by our team of forensic scientists, and to provide additional documentary evidence establishing his citizenship status prior to our Washington, D.C. press conference on December 8.

    http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2008-11-28.htm


  59. “Every part of the Constitution has to be understood in terms of the language and law of its own day, The Supreme Court may interpret it but it cannot alter even a comma.” – from the initial article.

    Unfortunately, while the second part of this statement is correct, the first part has several logical flaws:

    1) The “language and law of its own day” was under debate at the time, as both language, law, and many other topics have always been under debate in every culture. Certainty on such issues is not possible since – even at that time – complete agreement on such matters did not exist. Since we are now limited to consulting historical documents rather than participants, we are now even less certain about the “language and law of its own day”.

    2) Such a principle would cripple the federal government, which seems unlikely to be the intent of the authors. For example, “the language and law of the day” in 1787 might, possibly, have addressed ballooning – developed by the Montgolfier Brothers in 1783 (claims of invention by the Nazca considerably earlier are both very debatable and a very modern notion, since no relevant records were available at the time). It certainly did not address heavier-than-air flight, which was totally speculative at the time and thus not addressed in law. The matter has not been addressed by any later amendments either. Hence the federal government would, under such a principle, be unable to regulate heavier-than-air flight – or any similar issue that has arisen since 1787 – without an appropriate amendment being added to the constitution.
    Given that much of the activity of the federal government is currently justified under the Commerce Clause – also known as “The Elastic Clause” – attempting to return to the “language and law of its own day” for interpretation would mean dismantling much of the federal government. Whether or not that is considered desirable, it seems rather unlikely that the supreme court would attempt to do so.

    3) While Judicial Review has a long history, and the idea was both widespread and authorized in several state constitutions at the time, it is not explicitly authorized in the constitution. Instead, it was established in 1803 in Marbury versus Madison. Given that this case involved some of the founders – who did not all agree with the result – it also establishes that even the authors of the constitution did not agree on what the “language and law of its own day” meant.
    So: while the notion of Judicial Review was familiar to the authors of the constitution, they did not directly include it. Hence, if we take the view that the constitution cannot be interpreted to meet current needs, we wind up throwing out judicial review, more than two centuries of law, and much of the relevance of the supreme court.

    You may make headway by attempting to get a clear definition of “Natural Born Citizen” from the supreme court. Personally, I would project that the justices of the supreme court are likely to assume that ultimate source of authority for the constitution lies in the people of the country (if only because, if there are no people, the constitution is without force), and thus will be extremely unlikely to rule against the will of a distinct majority of the voters based on a theory with a logical flaw (1), which would cripple the government (2), and which would cast doubt on the legitimacy of its own decisions (3).


  60. Just like a lawyer……..Rude, arrogant, power hungry and money hungry. Lawyers are why so many people totally disrespect and sometimes hate lawyers.

    Stop picking apart every word that so many of these wonderful people on this blog are doing. I do not need a lawyer to understand what our writers are saying here. You are distracting. Go away…….please.

    Remember the BIBLE warns you lawyers!

    Sorry texas darlin and Judah this uneducated old lady does not want a lawyer, and I am assuming he or she is one buy their arrogance, coming on here and picking apart your wonderful words.


  61. I have read all your comments and highly respect what you are all saying. What really troubles me most is that to keep civil order we (not me and you or many US citizens, but the USSC) that they will allow this person to be elected. To avoid civil unrest. Does not every society every so often go through these growing pains? We have to reinvent ourselves. If indeed BHO is a constitutional lawyer that means “he knowly played this card” and knew the outcome (or at least knew the court would not want to have civil unrest). He committed fraud again. What then, do our laws and constitution really mean? We All have become boiled frogs. If he (BHO) wins here, what other things will he push through. I am not a legal person but even I with limited legal background see the extreme potential for legal abuse. What will that mean for all of us? Will we here at this website be targeted? Because we spoke out? It reminds me of this:

    “First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
    Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
    Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
    And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.” by Martin Niemoller:

    When will we speak out?
    I pray and hope that you are wrong.


  62. on November 29, 2008 at 1:56 pm | Reply J. Finis Davis

    Dear Mr. Benjamin:

    With great cleverness, BHO has already positioned himself to force his opposition to remove him from the OFFICE of President-elect. I do not recall the existence of such an OFFICE of President-elect in my lifetime. As a rule, I do not trust any politicians and I have come across the path of several on a national level. BHO is the most insidious Presidential candidate I have ever seen in 53 years. If the electors or the Supreme Court allow BHO to assume the office of President and Commander-In-Chief, the authority of the Constitution will effectively be dissolved. I enjoy living in a country where the Constitution is revered by the citizens of the land but I suppose it isn’t important or necessary for the day-to-day life of an ordinary, non-important citizen. America was an experiment to escape the tyranny of one-man rule in the rest of the world, but maybe the powers that be have determined the experiment to be a failure. I suppose we will find out in the next few weeks. Thanks for your thoughtfulness and insight on the Constitution. It all seems so simple to understand for some, and yet so difficult for others to see.

    Best,
    JFD


  63. copperpeony

    Can Wrotnowski renew his application to a different SC judge under Supreme Court Rule 22.4 like what Donofrio did when Judge Souter denied his application?


  64. copper peony, unbelievable that you somehow came up with the money to produce this ad and yet fail miserably to take advantage of this rare opportunity to expose the real bar to BO’s eligibility. IT IS NOT THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE; IT IS HIS DUAL NATIONALITY! Even if BO manages to produce a bona fide certificate establishing he was born in HI, the only thing you will have managed to do is to ensure that the millions of citizens who are ignorant of these issues but who might have been educated to require proof positive of BO’s eligibility will instead put the matter to bed, and accuse those of us who continue to challenge eligibility based on dual allegiance at birth, of being right-wing zealots and poor losers.

    I beg you to reconsider your unique opportunity to educate the EC voters, who will see this ad and pass it on.


  65. Oh, copper peony, I just read your web page. Obviously, you people are not serious, anyway. Sorry.


  66. If you haven’t done so already, please go to this link and sign the petition:

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550


  67. To jbjb:

    Please don’t jumpt to conclusions. It’s not my webpage. I had nothing to do with this ad. I only “found” it on “their” site and thought it was another humorous “pain in the butt” for Obama to deal with.

    No matter what other people think is right and spend their money on, even if it’s not effective or correctly presented according to what we discuss here (which I am in total agreement with) , the publicity will make the rest of the country (Joe the plumbers, bakers etc) aware.

    Most of the country does not know the ins and outs of Judicial law or even know what the EC does. They only believe what they see in the MSM.

    Please write to the site and tell them your thoughts. I am just a simple blogger on here investigating the truth.


  68. Wrotnowski’s SCOTUS case thrown out.

    11/26/08 – Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg quickly denies Wrotnowski’s application for stay one day after it was submitted to the United States Supreme Court.

    It’s now going to Scalia


  69. :lol: yeah you pretty much beat it to death …
    with all due respect…
    It can be summed up in one sentence:
    To be a native born, both parent must have no allegiance to any other country. ( period )
    Too bad Obama ,you told us that your father was a British subject when you were born…. Obama attest to the fact on the fight the smear website .. hehehehe
    HERE it is :
    “When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

    http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate


  70. JB (and JBJD)

    As usual, great stuff, diligently researched, and well thought out. I hope you are right about these definitions. I hope you are wrong about USSC refusing to process the case(s).

    But I also know THIS with the certainty of new-found religious belief. The USSC will NEVER stand down or slow down the election process based on the Natural Born Citizen issue alone. They will (MUST!) find some way to appear to legally wiggle around it. The public will never understand. They will see it as (another?) betrayal by the government and a worse disaster than whatever they imagined in 2000. The ONLY way the people could obtain even a little appreciation for this is through extensive and in-depth coverage by the MSM. And we all know THAT won’t happen. If anything the MSM will LEAD the cry of outrage.

    The ONLY hope is that the USSC will hear this case, order up original documents (birth certificate, passport, selective service, school admission/scholarship records, etc.) and then be stunned at the sheer volume and audacity of this fraud. So please don’t belittle these other aspects. They are of fundamental significance to the correct outcome that protects the US from usurptation.


  71. Front page of Globe magazine.

    http://www.globemagazine.com/

    Obama’s Outrage!

    PRESIDENT-elect Barack Obama is furious over a shocking new book that claims to reveal his sex and drug secrets – and link him to a murder – political insiders say in a stunning GLOBE world exclusive. Find out who is blowing the whistle on America’s next commander-in-chief and why the author’s bombshells could wreck the inauguration. It’s must reading for every American!

    I’m thinking they are referring to stuff regarding Larry Sinclair.


  72. I am jbjd. Judah Benjamin, who wrote this treatise, is JB. Obviously, we have both researched this issue of dual citizenship; but we are two separate and distinct people who, coincidentally, sometimes focus on the same issues in this election cycle, at the same time.

    copper peony, I will resubmit my comments to that site, per your suggestion.

    Carlyle, I agree with JB. That is, all other things about BO being equal, the fact that, he inherited his father’s British subjugation at birth made him other than a natural born citizen. Maybe you could pass on his opus to the EC voters in your state.


  73. kreise, I just finished reading about it on Sinclair’s site. He has a book out too that is being shipped to buyers globally ! Also, I guess the Obama ad is being published in the news also. That is the one people had to raise alot of money to pay for. Asking all the right questions. It is going out to newsstands Dec 1 and 3rd I think are the dates. We found a James Manning utube video too. Gotta see this guy ! We were rolling in laughter ! He has a way of making common sense sound so “normal” in all of this, and hilarious at the same time. He is so logical .Why didn’t he get that nomination ? My hubby loves the “Long legged Macdaddy ” definition, and the “Keys, go brother ! Omchakalaka ! That guy is priceless ! He missed his calling as a stand up comic ! That murder, by the way, is discussed here by Td, many moons ago (as usual)


  74. TD…..

    Where can we get names of the Electoral College officials for each of our states?

    This would be a great thread to post and ’stick’ so that all of us can contact them prior to December 15, 2008 to remind them of their responsibilities to the US Constitution.

    Thank you for all your hard word TD!

    Michael


  75. on November 29, 2008 at 3:58 pm | Reply J. Finis Davis

    Dear Mr. Benjamin:

    I am still pondering the possibilities. Order out of chaos seems to be a mantra of the new world order. Is it possible that “W” has set a trap for his political enemies? If BHO is not legitimate, all have been exposed to the power and might of the American Constitution and its laws/penalties. Maybe the venerable paper document still has some power left in it for those who commit treason during a time of internal terrorism and war?

    Best,
    JFD


  76. Carlyle, Good thoughts and post.


  77. To TD: I just read Yeah Right’s post and thought I’d spare you the extra work of locating the EC list site since I’m working on it at the moment anyway. Hope that was ok with you.

    The list of Electors will be posted near the end of November 2008. Go to the website of the U.S. Electoral College:

    http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/certificates.html

    Click on Certificates of Ascertainment which contains the names of the appointed electors and the 2008 Presidential Election Certificates for EACH STATE. Some have contact information and some do not. Contact those that offer information and communicate to them that:

    Electoral College Electors swear an oath to uphold the US Constitution. Voting for a presidential candidate, Barack Obama, while faced with compelling evidence that the candidate is not eligible to be president, would be a severe violation of constitutional law. The US Constitution rules.

    No Legal Requirement

    Electors in these States are not bound by State Law to cast their vote for a specific candidate:

    ARIZONA – 10 Electoral Votes
    ARKANSAS – 6 Electoral Votes
    DELAWARE – 3 Electoral Votes
    GEORGIA – 15 Electoral Votes
    IDAHO – 4 Electoral Votes
    ILLINOIS – 21 Electoral Votes
    INDIANA – 11 Electoral Votes
    IOWA – 7 Electoral Votes
    KANSAS – 6 Electoral Votes
    KENTUCKY – 8 Electoral Votes
    LOUISIANA – 9 Electoral Votes
    MINNESOTA – 10 Electoral Votes
    MISSOURI – 11 Electoral Votes
    NEW HAMPSHIRE – 4 Electoral Votes
    NEW JERSEY – 15 Electoral Votes
    NEW YORK – 31 Electoral Votes
    NORTH DAKOTA – 3 Electoral Votes
    PENNSYLVANIA – 21 Electoral Votes
    RHODE ISLAND – 4 Electoral Votes
    SOUTH DAKOTA – 3 Electoral Votes
    TENNESSEE – 11 Electoral Votes
    TEXAS – 34 Electoral Votes
    UTAH – 5 Electoral Votes
    WEST VIRGINIA – 5 Electoral Votes


  78. To Yeah Right:

    If you go to http://www.democratic-disaster.com/ they are in the process of contacting all the Electoral College Electors right now. I think they lack all but 12 states. They have packets of information that you can send out to them plus they have the names of the electors for all 50 States. In some cases some electors have changed their minds. I realize the USSC may not go the way we want so this organization was trying to think ahead of that possibility.


  79. Well, you guys probably won’t believe this, but about a week ago I emailed 9 of the 15 electors for my state NJ (could not find the other email addresses online although I found the regular addresses and planned to mail them letters). I mentioned in the brief email that Mr. Obama’s natural born citizenship has not been verified and it is your job to uphold the Constitution by verifying this prior to the Dec. 15th voting.

    BUT something very weird happened. One of them replied to my email saying something like “all you crazies better stop emailing us, I have reported you to the FBI terrorist investigators”.

    First I was horrified, but then I realized that all the electors had somewhat professional positions like lawyers, etc, all pillars of society and this response was totally nutso. Also, it made me smile that apparently they have been getting a lot of letters about this. Good!

    So I replied that I assume the person responding to my email was not Mr ___, but an assistant who should not be placing words into his/her boss’s mouth. No response. Gotcha.


  80. To Carlyle and the rest you fine folks here at TD. I understand and accept what you all have said. However, the USSC allowing this fraud to happen JUST so we have no violence in the streets? In 2000 the court could have rejected Bush v. Gore they did not. Which is the bigger fraud? This is far worst. Look throughout history. It really does not matter what we say here. I am sorry. It matter what happens after December 1st, 5th and when the electors meet. If we do not speak up we (in my opinion) will be silenced. I hope I am wrong about this. If BHO wins here what other liberties will he take? The worst part he will do it legally. How many of us will be willing to speak out then?


  81. To truthseeker:

    I had a difficult time maneuvering through the site you mentioned. Maybe you could put up the link to the names of the Electors if you could and if there is one?

    From what I’ve been investigating there are sbout 127 Electors that are Democrats in the States I mentioned above that are NOT bound by law to vote as their State did in the elction.

    I don’t know the names or how many are on the extreme left who will cast for Obama even if we found out he born on “the third rock from the sun”. These are the people that need to be targeted with the issues of Obama’s eligibilty.

    As an aside: 24 states DO NOT have to vote as did their State in the final outcome of the Election. I find that very peculiar. Why bother voting at all if the Elector can do whatever he/she wants on Dec. 15th? Doesn’t seem right that the people’s vote might not count because this.

    Our system is antiquated and needs a serious revamping.


  82. RE: Thoth

    If SCOTUS “believes” that “ultimate source of authority for the constitution lies in the people of the country”, then they would never have tackled the subject of civil rights for minorities decades ago. Having watched the Court for forty years, I’ve noticed that in the past some of the most unpromising cases have caught their attention and ended up as landmark cases. Already we’ve noted that two Justices, Souter and Ginsburg, do not WANT to consider this issue. It may very well be that in conference this issue will fall out 5-4, hopefully Justice Kennedy siding with the Constructionists.

    We need to keep in mind that the Supreme Court is EQUAL in authority and power to the other two branches of our government. This issue is expanding as a controversial in the blogosphere and in chat rooms. Kept in check by unscrupulous print and television media, only touched on briefly by talk radio, this issue has the potential to explode across the nation and not just with Obamatons.


  83. on November 29, 2008 at 5:17 pm | Reply NewEnglandPatriot

    The article by Judah Benjamin was outstanding. His analysis of the particular issue he chose to disseminate, “natural-born,” is very well-stated. Given that he believes there are five justices who lean towards federalism and strict interpretation of the Constitution, I wonder why he thnks they will not hear the case.

    It’s understandable that they will not want to insert themselves into changing anything about the election, but if Obama is not eligible, how can he be sworn in by Chief Justice Roberts? Then HE will be violating his oath to uphold the Constitution!

    Perhaps the Supremes will give the case back to the NJ Courts, but what would they do with it? The problem is that evidently several ineligible candidates ran for President, and apparently one of them won. But should that person be allowed to take office if he lied to everyone?


  84. Jan. 6, 2009: Congress accepts Electoral College votes.

    Just wondering:

    If a Congressman or Senator challenges president-elect Obama’s eligibility on Jan. 20 date before it well accept the Electoral College’s vote count, can the Congressman or Senator demand that Obama provide documents like the following documents in order to prove to Congress that he, Obama, is eligible to be president:

    1. Hawaii long form birth certificate, the one with the doctor and birth hospital names on it.

    2. Obama’s college records.

    3. Obama’s selective service registration card.

    4. Obama’s passport application.

    5. Any other documents that Congress can think of.

    Or, is Congress limited by time and rules as to what documents it can demand from Obama? Thanks.


  85. API=africanpress.wordpress has continued to say they have a tape of Michelle O going off on them about how there is no law to keep him from US pres. The story is on their website for all to read.

    For the past 2 months they have promised the release of this tape to help America from allowing the election of the FEC to elect him. It seems, however that on a daily basis they have 1 excuse after another as to why it can’t be aired or to whom it should be aired with.

    Today is the final straw—I would say that all media who have a story of truth should release that truth for all to see and hear and know.

    I, now doubt after reading todays site that there probably is no tape for the mere fact it is again being delayed.

    For the entire MSM to keep this hidden is out and out disgust and we the American people should be up in arms of this hidden bunch of lies coming from both him and her.

    I want my constitution upheld because without it we are a land with no laws. If we have no laws what is right and what is wrong and laws will protect us?


  86. I have come to believe that Obama is the opposite of what he says and what he appears to be. Just as a recent example, he has stated repeatedly “We only have one president at a time” and yet he is on TV and/or radio at least once a day giving press conferences and trying to show us he has power over Wall Street (he can make it go down by being elected talking about raising taxes on the rich … and he can make it go up by appointing economic advisers and saying he is “considering” not raising taxes on the rich.)

    I believe he is trying so hard to appear presidentially powerful right now so that if/when he is proven to be ineligible for the office, the world would come unglued (and therefore the Supreme Court would most likely let it go).

    The problem is that a high school kid in my neighborhood “raped” a couple of girls here but they never reported it and he got away with it …. only to steal my son’s car – we got it back but my son didn’t want to press charges so he got away with it …….. only to rob a house at knifepoint, get caught and wind up in jail.

    I’m trying to present an analogy. Give Obama an inch and he will take the world. I truly believe he needs to be stopped NOW. If he gets away with this fraud, I am afraid of what he will feel he is powerful enough to do as a world leader.

    By the way, Bush has ordered increased security for the country by bringing home more National Guard troops from Iraq. No, not because of terrorist threats, but because he is anticipating civil unrest. Can anyone provide a link?


  87. Hi – I covered this on a recent radio program and will be guest-hosting on Plains Radio Mon 12/1 at 7 PM, and will have Cort Wrotowski as a guest, the 2nd plaintiff with a similar suit pending at SCOTUS as Leo’s. I invite you to join us.

    Scott (aka “politicalpastor”)


  88. I find it completely insane to think the SCOTUS would dodge this situation. It seems obvious to me that the framers used the electoral college system + the Court itself as a means of protecting against TYRANNY. The number one theme and phobia of the framers. So the justices would just ignore a major functioning aspect of our form of government and the obvious meaning of “natural born” another firewall protection just because it is uncomfortable?Why bother coming to work?They should rule on this even if every city in America gets burned down.


  89. on November 29, 2008 at 6:51 pm | Reply constitutionalist

    In light of Obama’s answers at Saddleback forum and Obama’s dislike of those involved in this SCOTUS appeal, Obama may have some serious problems with stonewalling the court. If some of the Supreme are retiring they will not want to go out as the SCOTUS who denied Constitutional rights to the people and refused to investigate the newly elected C.I.C. Plus it does not hurt Obama dislikes them and said Thomas didn’t have enough experience.

    If you have not read Clarence Thomas biography book you should. Clarence Thomas is a true African American and Obama does not come close to that experience either.

    Interviews from Obama’s past show he will assign far left liberal supreme court judges who will twist the constitution to his liking. Obama even goes as far as to say the courts are not able to handle the amendments he feels are needed. In other words the part what the government can’t do to you he wants changed to what the government can do to you.

    Is this Natural born clause going to be his first amendment?

    Obama says he wants judges; “We need somebody who’s got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it’s like to be a young teenage mom. The empathy to understand what it’s like to be poor, or African-American, or gay, or disabled, or old. And that’s the criteria by which I’m going to be selecting my judges.”

    Obama’s mother was a young teenage mom, his mother was poor at times, Some says on food stamps, Obama is African American, and that is how he will choose the supreme court judges. Possibly 6 new ones. The gay issue in light of the 3 murdered from his church is important too. He also said his mother died fighting the insurance companies. Obama wants the Constitution based on his life and its problems. He will try to amend the natural born as quickly as he can. Is it freakin’ possible the democrats in control now have blocked any supreme court nominations by Bush so that they can not only control the house, POTUS but the Supreme court too? Damn!

    New York Sen. Charles E. Schumer, a powerful member of the Democratic leadership, said Friday the Senate should not confirm another U.S. Supreme Court nominee under President Bush “except in extraordinary circumstances.”

    “We should reverse the presumption of confirmation,” Schumer told the American Constitution Society convention in Washington. “The Supreme Court is dangerously out of balance. We cannot afford to see Justice Stevens replaced by another Roberts, or Justice Ginsburg by another Alito.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Opportunity_to_Govern_

    AmendmentThe Equal Opportunity to Govern Amendment, also known as the Hatch Amendment, is a United States constitutional amendment proposed in July 2003 by Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) to repeal the natural-born citizen clause prohibiting foreign-born individuals from holding the office of President or Vice President of the United States. Hatch’s amendment would allow anyone who has been a US citizen for twenty years to seek these offices. In the wake of the California recall election, 2003, this proposal is widely seen as an attempt to make California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (naturalized in 1983) eligible for the presidency and is sometimes nicknamed “Arnold bill”. However, there are other politicians who were not born as American citizens and therefore would benefit from such an amendment. Notables include Michigan governor Jennifer Granholm, Florida Senator Mel Martinez, and Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao. The text of the amendment reads as follows:

    Section 1. A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been for 20 years a citizen of the United States, and who is otherwise eligible to the Office of President, is not ineligible to that Office by reason of not being a native born citizen of the United States.

    Section 2. This article shall not take effect unless it has been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States not later than 7 years from the date of its submission to the States by the Congress.

    http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/10/30/tenacious-liberalism-obama-supreme-court-judges/Barack Obama expressed his regret that the Supreme Court hadn’t been more ‘radical’ and described as a ‘tragedy’ the court’s refusal to take up ‘the issues of redistribution of wealth.’ No wonder he wants to appoint judges that legislate from the bench,” Holtz-Eakin continued [McCain spokesman].

    We need somebody who’s got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it’s like to be a young teenage mom. The empathy to understand what it’s like to be poor, or African-American, or gay, or disabled, or old. And that’s the criteria by which I’m going to be selecting my judges.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/08/18/conservatives-slam-obamas-answer-about-supreme-court-justices-at-saddleback-forum/ During the symposium,

    Obama said he would not have nominated Thomas to the bench because “I don’t think that he was a strong enough jurist or legal thinker at the time for that elevation. Setting aside the fact that I profoundly disagree with his interpretation of a lot of the Constitution.”

    Obama then added that he would not have nominated Justice Antonin Scalia because they disagree, not because of any intellectual deficiencies. ”

    Obama started to say that Justice Thomas didn’t have enough ‘experience’ for the Supreme Court. In mid-sentence, when Obama realized that he himself has far less experience for the presidency than Justice Thomas had for the court in 1991, he shifted and said Justice Thomas ‘was not a strong enough jurist or legal thinker at the time,’” said Long, a former Senate aide whose conservative group works to get “highly qualified” justices confirmed to the bench.

    “It’s precisely because Justice Thomas has proven himself such a faithful steward of the Constitution that Barack Obama says he wouldn’t have nominated him,” said Ed Whelan, president of the Ethics and Policy Center and a former law clerk to Scalia. “If he is elected, Obama is a sure bet to appoint liberal judicial activists eager to invent farfetched constitutional ‘rights’ that entrench the left’s agenda on issues like same-sex marriage, stripping God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, child pornography, partial-birth abortion, and national security. It’s Obama who lacks the experience and judgment for the position that he seeks.” “Obama wants justices who will do his bidding, who will implement the preferred policies of the liberal establishment – not Justices like Thomas, Scalia, Roberts and Alito, who understand that the role of a judge is not to legislate from the bench,” she said.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,443948,00.html

    Because six members of the Court will be age 69 or older when the next president is inaugurated, it’s likely that multiple vacancies will occur during the next administration. This will create a rare opportunity for the next president to alter the direction of the High Court for the next several decades. It’s crucial, therefore, to have a president who understands the judiciary’s proper role. As Ronald Reagan once noted, “[The Founders] knew that the courts, like the Constitution itself, must not be liberal or conservative.”

    For Reagan and for the Founders, judges were to be selected based on their ability to put political preferences aside and interpret the Constitution and laws based on their original meaning.

    Yet it is clear that Americans do not want the personal opinions of nine unelected judges “shaping” their destiny. A recent survey conducted by the Polling Company on behalf of the Federalist Society found that a whopping 71 percent of likely Ohio voters want the next president to nominate Supreme Court justices who will “interpret and apply the law as it is written and not take into account their own viewpoints and experiences.”

    Barack Obama, who opposed the nominations of Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito, has repeatedly stated that his primary criteria for selecting judges will be whether they have “heart” and “empathy” when deciding difficult constitutional cases. His decision to vote against Roberts was based on his own displeasure with what was “in the judge’s heart,” though he admitted to having “no doubt” in his mind that Judge Roberts was “qualified to sit on the highest court of the land” and had the correct “comportment and temperament.” Obama’s frequent invocation of “heart,” particularly as he has discussed it as relevant in cases addressing abortion, affirmative action, gay rights, and rights of the disabled, would seem to suggest that he values the “viewpoint” and “experience” factors that those polled in Ohio reject.

    The layman’s constitutional view is that what he likes is constitutional and that which he doesn’t like is unconstitutional.
    Justice Hugo L.

    Blackhttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/17/274143.aspx

    Obama also won a laugh at the expense of Chief Justice John Roberts, saying that judgments of Roberts’ character during his confirmation hearings were largely superficial. “He loves his wife. He’s good to his dog,” he joked, adding that judicial philosophy should be weighted more seriously than such evaluations. “We need somebody who’s got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it’s like to be a young teenage mom. The empathy to understand what it’s like to be poor, or African-American, or gay, or disabled, or old. And that’s the criteria by which I’m going to be selecting my judges.”


  90. Mr. Judah Benjamin:

    Sir, your analysis is incorrect. There is not and never has been a distinction between “citizen by birth” and “natural born citizen.” This point is made at great length in the Supreme Court’s 1898 case Wong Kim Ark (see: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0169_0649_ZO.html). In this case, the court ruled that the son of two Chinese resident aliens was a US citizen “by birth.” This is despite the fact that the son could claim Chinese citizenship.

    The court in Ark cite Blackstone (and other common law sources) at length in their opinion, and determine that “under the jurisdiction” means anybody not a foreign diplomat or member of an invading army.

    You may think that Wong Kim Ark was decided incorrectly, or was not what the Founding Fathers wanted. The point is that finding Obama ineligible requires overturning Wong Kim Ark.

    In addition, Obama if sworn in would be our third President eligible for dual citizenship. The Presidents are:

    1) Chester Arthur: (see :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_A._Arthur) He was born of an Irish father and an American mother. (Ireland at the time was ruled by Britain.)

    2) John F. Kennedy: Per Irish law (see : http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/index.aspx?id=267#ent) Kennedy could apply because his grandmother was born in Ireland. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Augusta_Hickey).


  91. on November 29, 2008 at 7:09 pm | Reply constitutionalist

    However, the USSC allowing this fraud to happen JUST so we have no violence in the streets? In 2000 the court could have rejected Bush v. Gore they did not.

    Truthseeker, Obama made his campaign one of racism pointed at anyone who dared to speak the truth or ask any questions of him he did not want to answer. I believe that was part of their strategy to guilt America into voting for him. It worked the opposite with me. It made me despise him for the divisiveness. It made me sad for African Americans who felt racism was so extreme. Obama did whatever he wanted to win.

    Because we were already warned there could be major problems if Obama was not elected then we know that any court decision is going to be even bigger after the election.

    Bush and Gore would not burn down the country because of the Supreme court ruling. Obama and his thugocracy would.

    CARVILLE: Let me be clear, I said you can call the dogs and light the fire and leave the house. I think it sounds over.

    Now let me be clear here, if Obama goes in this race with a 5- point lead and losing this election, the consequences are — bull, man. I mean I don’t think that’s going to happen, but I think David it’s a point to bring up.

    But you stop and contemplate this country if Obama goes in and he has a consistent five point lead and loses the election, it would be very, very, very dramatic out there.


  92. All these people in the process who have said they have “vetted” O because he said he qualified–what would they say if their state’s citizens decided en masse they didn’t want to bother with things like driver’s licenses, marriage licenses, professional certifications, etc. and put forth the argument that they say they are qualified and the state must accept their say-so, because they do it for presidential candidates?
    I can’t imagine how that would ever fly. Keyes makes that point in his suit, that California requests more documentation for a driver’s license than to put someone on the ballot. Is this some valid legal argument? I’ve met plenty of people who would be glad to practice medicine based on their opinion of themselves.


  93. Why do you suppose 0bama told us that he was born with dual citizenship?

    Was it a dumb move, or a “put up your dukes you can’t take me down even with the law on your side” move or a “this is a coup d’etat declaration” move?

    I tend to think it was dumb-diversionary. I think he thought his minions would say, “it doesn’t matter because it’s expired”, that it would divert from his adult Indonesian citizenship and his Kenyan birthplace.
    The fact he hired the Kirkland law firm of Chicago whose partners were on the 0bama and Duribin Finance Committees to write rationale to take out the natural-born requirement for POTUS out of the US Constitution in 2006 means he and the DNC plotted this coup d’etat for years.

    There are some case precedents regarding who is and who is not natural born:

    Miss Elg was born in Brooklyn, New York, on October 2, 1907. Her parents, who were natives of Sweden, emigrated to the United States sometime prior to 1906 and her father was naturalized here in that year. Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325, 327 (1939).
    Elg is a citizen of the United States. Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325, 328 (1939).
    1 foreigner parent (Sweden) and 1 US citizen parent (naturalized by US statute)
    AND Born in Brooklyn, NY (USA)

    The facts were these: One Steinkauler, a Prussian subject by birth, emigrated to the United States in 1848, was naturalized in 1854, and in the following year had a son who was born in St. Louis. Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325, 330 (1939).
    ‘Young Steinkauler is a native-born American citizen.
    Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325, 330 (1939).
    2 US Citizen parents (at least one naturalized by US statute) AND Born in St. Louis, MO (USA)


  94. @copperpeony

    You are right that the system needs to be revamped. But you seem to be leaning the wrong way. The “official” way to choose presidents is via Electors. The popular vote is what needs to be fixed. There is no way the average citizen has the depth and beadth of knowledge to adequately select a president. And if they ever did, that has been ruined by the MSM disregard for their duty to be truthful and balanced. Perhaps the “re” vamping we need is the “old” vamping. Return to the manner the founders envisioned.

    If you doubt the wisdom of my suggestion, there are at least several major happenings this season that bring this all into laser-crisp focus.


  95. Thank you JB great article.

    I read elsewhere that if the EC votes for Obama which more than likely since they are politico’s they will the next step is the Congress on Jan. 6 (?) I think that was the date I read.

    And they should be the ones contacted with our concerns about the dual citizenship because they have the final word on the confimation of the POTUS.


  96. @ truthseeker

    I didn’t ever mean to say that I thought the USSC should punt. My only point – that I try to make whenever I get a chance – is, contrary to others here, I think the Donofrio case is weak. On the surface it appears to be the strongest – if you just stick with words and definitions. But the reason it is weak is for practical reasons. The USSC will simply mold and bend the definition of NB to include Obama. That solves everything. No riots, no illegal/fraudulent president. In order for Obama to be stood down, there will need to be more and different evidence than just the NB issue. It must be one of the other issues that they can’t finess.


  97. the Naturalization Act of 1790 was repealed by the naturaliztion Act of 1790 to not allow children born abroad to 2 american citizens to be considered “natural born”


  98. sorry Naturalization act of 1795 repealed act of 1790


  99. To Liz

    Obama is feeling so confident. Maybe his trips to Hawaii and bribes to officials have produced a perfect forgery of the Vault BC sitting there waiting to be discovered. Infact i think he took it during his first trip and returned to the vault on his second trip. His second trip also disposed of all records his grannie had in her apt. Why take 7 lawyers with him to see his dying grannie and not his family?

    Maybe there will be documents (forged of course) that he was never an Indonesian citizen even though he was adopted and the school in Indonesia made a simple clerical mistake assuming he was.

    Maybe he will produce diplomatic documents for his Pakistani trip ( the Pakistani passport issue) stating he didn’t need the U.S. one.

    Maybe his college records will all of the sudden appear with a hefty donation to help the recovery.

    Maybe he’ll say his selective service card forgery was a simple clerical error.

    Maybe he’ll say his grannie in Kenya has dimentia (with a doctor’s note) and is hallucinating about seeing him born.

    This man is a weasel and a liar and with a hundred lawyers might just skate out of this fraud by persuading the USSC that all is a big “misunderstanding” and he REALLY did not have time to go gathering all these frivolous documents.

    Don’t forget that Soros is footing the bill and with money anything can be done. Will the USSC order the fraudulent documents to be put under a microscope and into a forensics lab for verification??

    This will really be a touch and go situation and if Obama gets off, he will look like a victim to the whole world and we will look like paranoid fools.

    I hope to God that Obama will make a mistake in all of this (even a slight one) and the Justices will see through his manipulations and demand a hearing.

    I also hope to God that they will move quickly if this happens.


  100. Carlyle, wouldn’t bending the issue of who is NB still require showing some kind of proof of birth location/parentage?
    O. has always insisted he was born in Hawaii, but others insist not. How is proof offered and weighed in this sort of controversy? I think either he wasn’t born in America or his name isn’t O. (I won’t say it if I can help it) Either one would cast a doubt on his status. Perhaps the justices know that finding out one of these irregularities would open up more things they have to think about, and they want to do minimal deciding.
    And personally I think if these justices don’t ask for some kind of proof, they should be impeached. If there aren’t rules, society breaks down. The whole purpose of documents is to show that the rules are being followed. Who should know better than judges how many crooks there are in the world? You’d think they’d be all over it. I never thought I’d be rooting for Scalia and Thomas as I am now.


  101. To Carlyle:

    I am not as well versed about this as you seem to be so I will not, repeat not disagree with you or anyone who has better input.

    If I leaned the wrong way, sorry. All I know is something is not right with this process. On top of that, organizations like Acorn commiting all the voter fraud.

    Everything is out of control. New voting machines that can be hacked into etc, etc. How do we know Obama even won? We don’t and won’t.

    The system needs to be fixed because I firmly believe this country has been hijacked.


  102. Chance are we the people are not satisfied that Obama is qualified to be president. For those of you who may want to discuss this vital issue with a wonderful author tune into Blogtalkradio.com/VOS, Sunday night 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. Topic is: The Great Birth Certificate Scandal-Cover up of the 2008 Election (article by Joan Swirsky) Mieke & Therese, The Opinionators are very proud to announce our featured Guest is: Joan Swirsky, Who is the recipient of seven Long Island Press Awards. . .What a great opportunity to call in or write and ask this brilliant, talented, and wonderful author questions. You can write to the chat room at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vos or call 347-633-9851


  103. To Judah Benjamin: God has bestowed on some people like you vast amounts of clear, concise logic and depth of knowledge.

    We are fortunate to have someone like you guiding us on this ship through turbulent waters. Your writing is inspirational.

    Thank you and to TD, your second mate in this struggle to keep our country free like the Founding Fathers hoped it would be for generations to come.


  104. Love the rules you have set in your rules section, I may follow suit. I have been ambushed time and time again over at my blog, at one time in early October, over 1,000 comments overnight (many of which I deleted–pure filth). They went on to threaten, time and time again, any conservative/positive comment on my blog to the point that very few return readers will comment unless it’s through email! They were bullied, and some even said their lives were threatened (as was mine). Whether the threats were serious we’ll never know, but the point remains that, in my humble opinion, Obama bullied himself right into the White House.

    It will be an interesting 4 years if his birth certificate/citizenship thing doesn’t take him out. I pray the half of our country that voted for this man will wake up before the next election.

    Press on! Great blog!


  105. oooops…sorry TD…meant to say FIRST mate..what was I thinking?


  106. Judah, this is a great article. Thank you.
    If BO is allowed to be sworn in and found to be ineligible, then all the Senators, Congressmen, Secretaries of States, and Judges, who were aware of questions about his ineligibility and did not investigate, confirm, and did nothing, are responsible for any constitutional crisis and rioting. The rioters only have BO to blame. If he is not eligible to be POTUS and is sworn in as such, this will set a whole new precedent for future Presidential elections.


  107. on November 29, 2008 at 9:29 pm | Reply Judah Benjamin

    To Thoth

    You really shouldn’t use the name of the Egyptian god of Scholars and Civil Servants as a handle if you don’t get the point that on the subject of Constitutional Interpretation you are arguing with, and impugning the logic of, not me, a humble scholar, but people like the Professors Volokh (both), Aleinikoff, Tribe, etc and Justices Scalia, Roberts, Alito, etc. As I have said I’m giving an overview not
    propounding new theories. I happen to agree with these august gentlemen and ladies but your problem is with them, not with me.

    It is this theory, ie that one must take account of the law and language of the time of drafting/framing, and by extenso the intentions of the Framers, that brings into question certain precedent cases such as Wong Kim Ark. Madison, for example, holds to the theory that Wong Kim Ark is not settled law because of this. I tire of arguing with those like yourself and Issues who choose to ignore the facts that (a) I don’t need instruction in Law from people who know less than my professors, back in the day, did and who certainly know less than the people I have mentioned above, (b) I’m not an idiot who cons his information from doubtful sources and (c) I give extensive lists of sources in order that any reader may search them and form an educated opinion. I also do not need instruction in Philosophy or Logic thank you very much. I spent all too much of my life either sitting in lecture rooms and tutorials on Law and Philosophy to be obliged to read the bloviating of persons like yourself who certainly know no more than I do about Law and Philosophy and who may, conceivably know less.

    I don’t think you would enjoy having me as a Professor and I’d walk out of any lecture you gave, for sure.

    My efforts on this blog are more educational than polemic, though they do have a polemic element.

    To jbjd

    I’m sorry, I don’t email people directly but if you send a comment to TD marked [NOT FOR PUBLICATION] I will take a look a your idea and tell you what I think. I suspect however that it would be far more to the point to consult Professor Michael Dorf or Dr Edwin Vieire, Jr. After all, as I keep saying, I’m not a lawyer.

    To NewEnglandPatriot

    If my theory is correct BHO II cannot be legally sworn in as POTUS and he would be a usurper were he to be sworn in. However I suspect as I said in the article that there is a strong body of opinion in Washington that if this situation is allowed to go ahead now his period in Office will be a disaster, he will lose in 2012 and the Constitution will simply re-exert itself by default at that time with the natural-born citizen clause Amended as per the Hatch Amendment.

    I began this whole marathon in an attempt to get people to read the Constitution and the Law surrounding it with a degree of understanding it was obvious most people no longer had. I had hoped that it might spur some kind of action to preserve the Constitution, or at least that it would make people think. It worked with some.

    To NOBAMANOWAY

    Perkins vs Elg does not establish who is a natural-born citizen. It establishes who is a citizen by birth. I keep pointing this kind of thing out. Over the years it has become a shibboleth that the two are the same. Like Wong Kim Ark, Perkins vs Elg is a debatable precedent, in my own view. I have never questioned Obama’s citizenship by birth, though Madison strongly questions his assertion that he is a citizen under the XIVth Amendment. Under ius soli, Common Law principles, anyone born on US soil would be born a US citizen. According to Madison, and others, such persons may not be citizens under the XIVth Amendment but only citizens by statute, but then according to this kind of argument those born abroad to two US parents are also citizens by statute and not citizens by birth.

    To Dr bobbi Anne white

    I’m fully aware that the Law of 1790 was repealed in 1795 but:

    (a) It still bears on intention.

    (b) The State Department still explicitly reference it.

    I’m using it as demonstrating intention, not as active law.


  108. I have two more articles on the way. I’d guess there are people out there who won’t like them, that’s fine by me. The Ist Amendment protects their Rights too. Mind you, I would like to know how the Ist Amendment jibes with recent interpretations on “Standing”. How does one “petition the Government for a redress of grievances” if none of the three branches will hear a petition? And do not certain groups currently act in such a way as to cause one to suspect that “abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press” is in fact their aim? Of course that doesn’t matter because nobody has standing to complain and it isn’t anyone’s duty to investigate anyway, according to a large number of officials and judges.

    Judah, you captured my heart.
    The first day the ruling, if you call it that, came down, I was shocked. I’m an educator, this isn’t my field.
    “No standing”?? Yes, I was reeling in disbelief for where does that leave the 230,000,000 who didn’t vote for this ‘usurper’?
    If the SCOTUS pass on this, the 230,000,000 are being told, we have nowhere to turn in a constitutional crisis.
    This is their expertise, their responsibility, for if they can’t give a ruling, the only power of authority left is God.
    Not settling this–passing on this, by not hearing the arguments, for whatever reason, is telling me, I have no rights, I’m not included in the Constitution; every man, woman, and child who fought, sacrificed, and protected the Constitution did so in vain.
    I can’t accept that.


  109. Carlyle, you state the following:

    “The USSC will simply mold and bend the definition of NB to include Obama.”

    and

    “In order for Obama to be stood down, there will need to be more and different evidence than just the NB issue. It must be one of the other issues that they can’t finess.”

    Can you elucidate on what would, in your opinion, constitute “more and different evidence” on matters other than the NB issue? What other issue or issues are outstanding that you believe the USSC would not be able to finesse?


  110. JB, I would gladly send material directly to these people you name, for a second opinion, especially if they are lawyers; but I have no idea who they are or how to get a hold of them.


  111. Janet..

    Are you talking about this? This is a blog addressing this in the beginning of Oct.

    http://www.nationalexpositor.com/


  112. on November 29, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Reply FirstAmendment

    Whoever stated this: “The Justices can follow the Law and risk calumny and civil disorder, or ignore the plain Common Law reading of the Constitution and risk usurpation and civil disorder.”” MUST be from Obama’s camp.

    Obviously, you do not understand that threats of “risking calumny and civil disorder” do not matter. We are still a land of laws. Any such risks are well work taking in order to keep our constitutional republic intact.

    You and your ilk have tried to “p.c.” the nation into submission. This shan’t work. At the end of the day, you have expunged any meaning from the word “racist”.


  113. The Will of the People???? Really? Stating that the Sup. Ct. will not “rule against the will of the People” because of so many votes, seems like it could be a flawed argument. Why?? because that would presume that the People expressed their free will or could act “willfully” based upon some knowledge or belief. Instead what you have is the will of the “People” which was the function of or created as a result of a misrepresentation as to a Candidates Constitutional eligibility to take the office based upon ballots wrongfully provided by the State governments and therefore that “willful” act must certainly be suspect.


  114. Judy,

    Even though the SCOTUS will almost certainly not address the issue of what “natural born” citizen means, this does not mean you are without recourse. There are two bodies which under Article 2 of the Constitution elect the President. The first is the Electoral College, which does not vote until December 15. The second is Congress, where congressmen can raise objections to electoral votes. Thus citizens can raise objections to the election of Obama to the presidency to electors and congressmen.


  115. I find all of the postings and particularly JB’s factual presentation of BHO’s elgibility to be POTUS very interesting and informative. However, I think we are all missing the real issue and that is who or what is behind it all. Undoubtedly by all that is being presented BHO is not an eligible president elect (by the popular vote), he knows this as well as his supporters, the DNC, RNC, the President and anyone else you wish to include. What we need to begin to address is how this is happening and is there anything that can be done to expose and punish those responsible. Let me ask a few basic questions.

    1. How can a presidential candidate supress his record of birth, citizenship, education, passport and all other personal information?
    2. How does the MSM not explore, expose or ever discuss these vital issues?
    3. How does a major party (the DNC) not vet a candidate for eligibility and yet certify the individual?
    4. How does Hillary Clinton not address this issue?
    5. How does John McCain not address this issue?
    6. How does a sitting Republican president with the powers of the FBI, CIA and other agencies not investigate this issue and subsequently let the investigation be known to the public?
    7. When in the history of presidential candidates have you not heard something from individuals who have known him/her in their youth, high school, college or work?

    In my opinion, BHO is not eligible to be POTUS. I believe the pursuit of the “Natural Born” elgibility litigation is worthwhile and may have the desired outcome. However, can someone please address who or what is driving the BHO presidential bid. Is it a giant conspiracy, ignorance (which I doubt, except for the ordinary voter), complacency or some unknown? Whatever it is we need to know.


  116. Edit: well WORTH taking. But, you know that! :)


  117. First Amendment

    I have been thinking alot about the PC correctness that is now demanded of us. There was a time I too thought that was a good idea. I now see it as taking away free speech.

    “We are still a land of laws” yes we are and it’s past time for our lawmakersto stop allowing interlopers to disobey those laws.

    And it’s time to stand up for those laws. I don’t care what name people call me..call me crazy…I no longer have the use or patience for those who chose to ignore the facts or just don’t care enough to be involved. .

    We have a Constitution and it needs to be followed or changed by the people and for the people.


  118. @ missy

    There are several issues that have been put forward in regards various frauds and misrepresentations made by Obama or on his behalf. I can’t prove any of them. I was just saying that getting all the hidden/suppressed information out in the open would be very revealing. Some of the most important things that might be discovered include:

    Obama’s foreign birthplace
    His current citizenship
    Truth in regards his selective service registration
    Documented (strong) ties to unamerican interests
    Or anything else that materially differs from his self-written legend

    Even though I agree “it’s the law” – I would personally be much more concerned if he were not a citizen, than I would about not being natural born. My point also is that the everyday average citizen would understand that a lot easier as well.

    On the other hand, all this information being revealed may totally exonerate him. I have always said – shine light on the information and let the chips fall where they may.


  119. @ Missy Bear

    Spot on. Your list of 7 items in particular is much more important than most of what we discuss here. However – and this is crucial – unless he can be exposed soon, all of those items will get buried deeper and deeper and will never be explored. So – we gotta do first things first. But save the list. We will need it later!


  120. [...] Natural Born Citizens: Or How to Beat a Subject to Death with a Stick. This article will concentrate on the admitted fact that Barack Obama was born with dual [...]


  121. @ bemused

    As you can probably deduce, I think “unlocking” all these hidden/suppressed records is essential. I wish there were simply a way to file a lawsuit to force him to produce records. Then let them speak for themselves.

    In regards, NB status – my concern is this. Donofrio and others have based their cases or their logic on the existing published records. I am putting forward the fear that the USSC will act very narrowly. That they will focus solely on making a wide definition of NB – and then relative to the existing records say that Obama is eligible.

    I’m not a lawyer and don’t know how to do it. But I think THE MOST IMPORTANT activity is to use these lawsuits as a means to expose the records.


  122. KENTUCKY – 8 Electoral Votes
    I am a volunteer of democratic-disaster.com, a grass-roots organization to alert all electors to the constitutional crisis.
    I have not heard from one and a follow-up letter will be sent Monday. I don’t like to think the effort was in vain, but it seems that way.
    Some volunteers have sad stories- papers quote the electors disbelief because Bush wasn’t upset with the BC issue, one volunteer received a return with letters in huge markers, ‘SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP’– so if the electors don’t take this seriously, what can we expect from the average citizen??

    JJ in Kentucky.


  123. One error I see in this article and in Donofrio’s presentation of his argument, the so-called Grandfather clause. JB says, “Clearly the Framers did not see themselves as being natural-born citizens . .” etc.

    Over and over again in Madison’s notes on the Constitutional Convention, there were only two participants who were considere not to be natural born citizens: James Wilson, who was born in Scotland and Alexander Hamilton, who was born in the West Indies.

    At one point Mr. Wilson took issue with the natural born requirement (from James Madison’s Notes):

    “MR. WILSON said he rose with feelings which were perhaps peculiar; mentioning the circumstances of his not being native, and the possibility, if the ideas of some gentlemen should be pursued, of his being incapacitated from holding a place under the very Constitution, which he
    had shared in the trust of making . . . ”

    “MR. Govr MORRIS. The lesson we are taught is that we should be governed as much by our reason, and as little by our feelings as possible. What is the language of Reason on this subject? that we should not be polite at the expense of prudence. There was a moderation in all things . . . He ran over the privileges which emigrants would enjoy among us, though they should be deprived of that of being eligible to the great offices of Government; observing that they exceeded the privileges allowed to foreigners in any part of the world; and that as every Society from a great nation down to a club had the right of declaring the conditions on which new members should be admitted, there could be no room for complaint. As to those philosophical gentlemen, those Citizens of the World as they call themselves, He owned he did not wish to see any of them in our public Councils. He would not trust them. The men wh can shake off their attachments to their own Country can never love any other. These attachments are wholesome prejudices which uphold all Governments . . .” (From Madison’s notes, compiled in Solberg’s THE FEDERAL CONVENTION & THE FORMATION OF THE UNION, pages 275-6)

    The so-called Grandfather clause was specifically to allow ONLY TWO to run for the highest office: James Wilson and Alexander Hamiliton. THE REST CONSIDERED THEMSELVES NATIVES OR NATURAL BORN CITIZENS!!! Read Madison’s notes! The American Revolution was a revolution TO RETORE THE RIGHTS OF THE CITIZENS OF THE STATES that had been taken away by the Crown (see the Declaration of Independence).

    Our system comes out of a long tradition of English Common Law, as Mr. Benjamin has eloquently described. As a result, the Framers of the Constitution clearly did see themselves as natural born citizens, except for the two foreign born, James Wilson and Alexander Hamilton.


  124. kentucky boy
    Judy,

    Even though the SCOTUS will almost certainly not address the issue of what “natural born” citizen means, this does not mean you are without recourse. There are two bodies which under Article 2 of the Constitution elect the President. The first is the Electoral College, which does not vote until December 15. The second is Congress, where congressmen can raise objections to electoral votes. Thus citizens can raise objections to the election of Obama to the presidency to electors and congressmen.

    Uh-huh, notified all electors of Ky, no response, follow-up letter to be mailed Monday–read previous post; very discouraging.


  125. As an aside: 24 states DO NOT have to vote as did their State in the final outcome of the Election. I find that very peculiar. Why bother voting at all if the Elector can do whatever he/she wants on Dec. 15th? Doesn’t seem right that the people’s vote might not count because this.

    copperpeony–for this very reason, we are grateful for the elector college–they may save our country.
    Until this year, I didn’t like the system, and now, low and behold, our brilliant Founding Fathers may have forseen this need and protected us.


  126. on November 30, 2008 at 12:52 am | Reply goodtimepolitics

    Has everyone seen this post by countusout.wordpress.com It sure make a person think of whats going on with Obama having so many secrets that he has kept from the American people and why the media is so in the tank with him!

    http://countusout.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/obama-covertly-working-to-amend-the-natural-born-citizen-requirement/

    If the courts does not hear this issue on the 5th of Dec and they throw it out this American will lose all faith in our great Nation! Whatever happen to the Government for the people, by the people?


  127. on November 30, 2008 at 1:03 am | Reply J.J. (The PUMA)

    I agree with Carlyle that the Supreme Court will not declare Obama ineligible on dual citizenship grounds. Mr. Benjamin has put together an impressive theoretical argument, but one I think is dead on arrival. The Supreme Court will need something that is unambiguous.

    IT IS ALL ABOUT THEBIRTH CERTIFICATE!!! The end goal of this exercise is not to get someone who received 53% of the popular vote disqualified after the fact. The goal is to find out why Obama is paying a team of lawyers to keep his birth certificate from becoming public.

    I have a theory about what he is hiding. That he is, at best, only 1/16 black, and that he invented himself as “African American”.


  128. In my opinion, BHO is not eligible to be POTUS. I believe the pursuit of the “Natural Born” elgibility litigation is worthwhile and may have the desired outcome. However, can someone please address who or what is driving the BHO presidential bid. Is it a giant conspiracy, ignorance (which I doubt, except for the ordinary voter), complacency or some unknown? Whatever it is we need to know.

    Missybear—think the nation, FBI, CIA, Hillary, Mccain, DNC, RNC, Bush, Senators, Pelosi, Reid.Hawaii officials, Indonesia officials, Kenyan officials……all higher-ups you can name…….

    Now, think, did you notice a change in Mccain in his campaign?? Thought he was sick, tired, distracted for a few weeks?? Even his wife looked like a deer caught in headlights?? Did you notice the very week it was like he’d given up?? No fight with all the ammunition he had??

    Now, think of our country being held hostage with vile threats and I don’t need go further………..
    Explains everything??

    Someone presented these thoughts in an article–it clicked for me!!!!!!


  129. Really well written post, glad I read it.


  130. Just passing this along , they really need some financial assistance..

    If you have any questions before making a donation, feel free to contact:

    Dr. Douglas W. Schell
    Chair of Democratic Disaster
    432 Logan Ct.
    King, NC 27021
    Poppop_schell@hotmail.com
    Phone: 336-983-7655

    Your financial support and prayers will be greatly appreciated. If you wish to join this effort, please e-mail Dr. Schell at: poppop_schell@hotmail.com or you may use the form below to enclose a check in the return envelope.

    Thank you for your time and consideration.

    For Constitutional Government,

    ___________________________ Please make check payable to:
    Name

    ___________________________ DEMOCRATIC DISASTER
    Street

    _______________________________________
    City, State, Zip

    _________________________________Phone/E-mail

    L

    ———————————————————————————————————
    Enclosed is my check to support the efforts of Democratic Disaster in upholding our Constitution.

    There is going to be a full page open letter to Obama published in the Chicago Tribune on Monday 12/1 and also on Wed. 12/3. It will appear in the main news section. Then there is going to be a DC National Press Club Event on Dec 8th.


  131. On ABC they had a story about 0bama naming Hillary as SOS on Monday.
    So I posted about what else happens on Monday and on Friday.
    It was deleted and my ISP banned within 30 seconds.

    The MSM is obviously in the tank…duh
    But this is a level of media criminal activity to deny the American public the foreknowledge of what could be some fallout. Denying them the right to be readied for unrest.

    Bush’s propping up the economy-leaners with near trilliion bailouts and calling back brigades from Iraq are warning signs for all but the most blind.

    MSM/ABC want Americans to keep shopping/stampeding/trampling…like savage idiots.

    I’m warned through my grapevine that something big is coming this week from Alabama and that’s all I’m told.
    This feels like a very bad time. The bots are lame inane and insane…and vicious.

    I honestly don’t know what’s best for my savings, my family. I am cashing out of my bonds on Monday. I am thinking of buying Euros or at least Canadian currency. I am no financial expert (not even in the slightest) but I think 2009 is going to be extremely bad no matter how you spin things. Last time I acted on my “premonition” and I got my stocks sold in the nick of time. Now, I have that awful feeling again that the government might just freeze up lock down or, who knows what?


  132. Goodtimepolitics,

    A very smart piece of research! Thanks for your diligence.


  133. Calling Judah Benjamin & Texasdarlin’ – found this posted by an Indonesian in English. He states that Obama was born in Kenya. Thought ya’ll might enjoy the link:

    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/2952/barry-soetoro/


  134. on November 30, 2008 at 4:28 am | Reply Judah Benjamin

    To jbjd

    OK, here are their details. To be honest I have no idea if either man will co-operate but they are the best I know of for this purpose.

    Michael C. Dorf is the Robert S. Stevens Professor at Cornell University Law School

    Edwin Vieira, Jr., holds four degrees from Harvard: A.B. (Harvard College), A.M. and Ph.D. (Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences), and J.D. (Harvard Law School). For more than thirty years he has practiced law, with emphasis on constitutional issues. In the Supreme Court of the United States he successfully argued or briefed the cases leading to the landmark decisions Abood v. Detroit Board of Education, Chicago Teachers Union v. Hudson, and Communications Workers of America v. Beck, which established constitutional and statutory limitations on the uses to which labor unions, in both the private and the public sectors, may apply fees extracted from nonunion workers as a condition of their employment.

    He has written numerous monographs and articles in scholarly journals, and lectured throughout the county. His most recent work on money and banking is the two-volume Pieces of Eight: The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the United States Constitution (2002), the most comprehensive study in existence of American monetary law and history viewed from a constitutional perspective. http://www.piecesofeight.us

    He is also the co-author (under a nom de plume) of the political novel CRA$HMAKER: A Federal Affaire (2000), a not-so-fictional story of an engineered crash of the Federal Reserve System, and the political upheaval it causes. http://www.crashmaker.com

    His latest work is “How To Dethrone the Imperial Judiciary”

    Edwin Vieira, Jr.
    http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin.htm

    He can be reached at P.O. Box 3634, Manassas, Virginia 20108.

    To FirstAmendment

    I resent having it suggested that I belong to Obama’s camp. I am not supporting him at all I am pointing out how I suspect the Justices may be thinking and how Congress seems to be thinking. To accuse me of supporting Obama is so foolish as to be laughable, only I don’t find it funny at all.

    I agree that the behavior of those who support Obama is “p.c.ing” the country to death. I should point out though that some of his supporters seem to be willing to deploy the Ku Klux Klan Act against any opposition to him that might involve physical action while preventing the same law from being used against his supporters.


  135. Yid with lid says obama suffering from a facial tic.
    http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/

    Could it be that Obama’s tic is from lying about his birth certificate?


  136. Drkate, thanks and I agree with you that the ridicule shouldn’t stop us. It comes from those who should have done that work the MSM.


  137. I am not a lawyer and can not comment on the above post with any authority. It is an interesting argument. I still feel that there is someting very wrong with obama’s COLB. Why would he spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep from getting a $12 copy of his original long form COLB? It makes no sense at all from a legal standpoint. Where there is smoke, there must be fire and Obama’s COLB is really smoking.
    http://bloggingredneck.blogspot.com/


  138. Nobamanoway…….wait a minute!! You can’t leave us hanging like that.

    What in the world could come from Alabama that was big…that might effect all of us? I might understand your message better if you had said DC or New York…but Alabama? What is there that could be bad?


  139. Hi everyone:

    I guess what I am hoping for now is that we take action LEGALLY. We have been kicking this can around the block too long. We need some sort of plan. It needs to be legal. I emailed someone involved with some of the lawsuits about filing a civil suit (sort of like what happened when Ron Goldman’s Family sued for damages). I think we have to keep suing till we hit a nerve.


  140. To Missy and everyone else:

    It does not really matter how high it goes up or why. The question is when are we going to do something about? Or are we going to just sit here and let everything slip away? Talk is great. We need action.


  141. To NOBAMANOWAY as was said by Shainzona will you elaborate on your comments about Alabama?


  142. truthseeker: I know a writer who knows Keyes, Wrotnowski and Donofrio legal teams and that’s all they’d say…something big this week, from the deep South, Alabama…sorry too many pins and needles

    … I read this on ABC blog (where I got banned in 30 seconds for mentioning Donofrio), but thought it was funny: “0bama would not pass his own security questionnaire. But that doesn’t matter because he has a high IQ. And even if he doesn’t have a high IQ, that doesn’t matter because the people believe he does. And even if it is only the people who have low IQ’s that believe he has a high IQ, that doesn’t matter because everything is relative.”


  143. The Keyes case hasn’t hit the Supreme Court yet. “The Plaintiffs are seeking a Court Order barring the California Secretary of State from certifying the California electors until documentary proof that Senator Obama is a “natural born” citizen is received by the Secretary.” I hear that Gary Kreep is a competent attorney. The plaintiffs are Alan Keyes, Presidential candidate of the American Independent Party; Wiley S. Drake, V.P. candidate of the Independent Party and California elector; and Markham Robinson, California elector.

    Does anyone have an opinion as to where this case will go? It does includes two California electors.

    I think I heard somewhere that Obama’s electors were in his camp, so the chances of turning any of them seems unlikely. Does anyone know how electors are selected?


  144. on November 30, 2008 at 1:24 pm | Reply anniesweetieoakley

    Please POST!

    Transparency: an open letter to Barack Obama

    this also coincides with the full page ads that will be published in the Chicago Tribune on Dec. 1 & 3:

    settle it, Obama!


  145. I’d like to say thanks for the great article to JB, to TD for hosting it and to all the thoughtful posters. You are all totally and completely responsible for my chores not getting done this morning.

    :)


  146. Very concise article Judah, all my research follows along the same lines, and although I have reached no conclusion as to how I think the SCPTUS will proceed, I am now wondering if THEY are the “final word” . Even moreso, I am , after reading the following on The Federalist blog, concerned if the heretofor unidentified proper venue IS the SCOTUS.
    I’ll put this out for all to read, I find it curious, and it opens up a path for even more research. I am curious as to everyones response
    _______________________________________________
    Bill Russonello on 11/21/2008 at 9:12 PM Ignore the Constitution?

    The Constitution of the United States, Article II, sets down three requirements for eligibility to the Office of President.

    “No Person except a natural born Citizen,…, shall be eligible to the Office 0f President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

    The (un-amended) Constitution makes no reference to the eligibility requirements for Vice-President. The original method of electing the President and Vice-President apparently assumed that as both were candidates for President, and the Vice-President was to be the individual receiving the second highest number of votes for President, these requirements automatically applied to the office of Vice-President.

    With the Twelfth Amendment, ratified June 15, 1804, the method of electing President and Vice-President was changed , and the Article II requirements were formally applied to the office of Vice-President. The last line of the Twelfth Amendment states “But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.”

    For the purpose of the continuation of this discussion it is necessary to ask when an individual becomes the “President-elect.” The immediate reply by most Americans would be “When the results of the General Election are known or the opponent concedes.”

    However a plain reading of the Twelfth Amendment will reveal that may not be the case.

    Apparently the “President-elect” is known, when, in the language of the Twelfth Amendment, “-The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives , open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.”

    The President-elect and the Vice-President-elect, begin their terms as President and Vice-President, respectively, at noon on the 20th day of January in the appropriate year. This date was established by the Twentieth Amendment, ratified January 23, 1933.

    Further to the purpose of this discussion, the Twentieth Amendment, in Section 3, prescribes how the President is to be chosen in certain circumstances, one of which is in the event, “ … the President-elect shall have failed to qualify, …”.

    That language compels understanding that at some point, the President-elect must qualify.

    It should be appreciated that the Constitutional Convention of 1787, and the U.S. Congresses and ratifying State Legislatures of 1789, 1804 and 1933, all considered the three simple eligibility requirements set forth in Article II, to be absolute. However, nowhere does Article II, Amendment XII or Amendment XX command, instruct or even suggest that the Electors vote only for a “qualified” candidate.

    Arguably then, the period during which the Constitution anticipates that the President-elect and the Vice-President-elect must qualify begins with the President of the Senate opening the certificates and counting the votes; and ends at noon on January 20th.

    This is a very short window to address a very important question.

    Surprisingly, there is no mention in the Constitution, its amendments or in any law I have been able to find, as to who is responsible for certifying that the individual, who by the votes of the Electors of the several States, counted by the President of the Senate is deemed President-elect, is in fact “qualified” in accordance with Article II of the Constitution, or “has qualified” within the meaning of the Twentieth Amendment.

    Is it possible that we have had 43 Presidents and have never formally checked that any met the three simple Constitutional requirements? Have we just assumed that an individual would not seek the office if constitutionally unqualified?

    Who’s obligation is it to determine and certify an individual person as “qualified” to be President of the United States within the meaning of Article II ? The Candidate? The sitting President? The Congress? The Supreme Court? The Federal Election Commission? The Electors of the several States? The Governors of the several States? ……Who?

    Prior to the Primary Elections preceding the Presidential Election of 2000, the question as to whether Sen. John McCain, of Arizona, is constitutionally qualified due to his birth in Panama was researched at the candidate’s request and expense by scholars and lawyers who concluded that he was qualified. Is it enough that hirelings of the candidate merely pronounce him qualified?

    Prior to the Presidential Election of 2008 the question as to whether Sen. Barack H. Obama, of Illinois, is constitutionally qualified to be elected President of the United States was posed to the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, case # 2:2008cv04083, Berg v. Obama et al but dismissed October 24, 2008 for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and plaintiff’s lack of standing .

    If, presumably, all U.S. District Courts lack subject matter jurisdiction, and all ordinary U.S. Citizens lack standing how do we ensure that our President is qualified as required by Article II of the Constitution?

    I submit that:

    a. The question of Presidential eligibility becomes litigable only
    upon the counting of the votes of the Electors of the several States by the President of the Senate.

    b. The Attorney-General of the United States has standing.

    c. The Supreme Court of the United States has subject matter jurisdiction.
    I further submit that the Attorney-General of the United States, upon becoming aware that a serious question exists as to the constitutional eligibility of those individuals pronounced by the President of the Senate to be the President-elect or Vice-President-elect, is duty bound by his/her oath of office, to investigate the facts concerning the President-elect and Vice President-elect’s individual Constitutional qualifications, and to act in an appropriate apolitical manner.

    You may be tempted to interpret the above as a desperate attempt by a McCain supporter to deny Sen. Obama his victory. I assure you that is not the case. Any official finding of “qualified” or “not-qualified” by the appropriate Federal Officer or the appropriate Federal Court would satisfy the Article II requirement.

    If there is no mechanism to officially deem a candidate Constitutionally qualified, what is the point of those qualifications being spelled out in the Constitution?

    Is California’s Governor Schwarzenegger bared from seeking election to President merely because he thinks his birth in Austria and subsequent Naturalization as an American does not qualify him as a “natural born citizen”? Is he bared because “everybody knows” that he is not a “natural born citizen”? Should he seek the office, and if elected, rely on the fact that there is no Federal Officer or Court authorized to pronounce him un-qualified?

    We have inaugurated 43 Presidents who we assumed met the constitutional requirements. Presumably they all met those requirements as “nobody raised the issue.”

    Now, in 2008, someone has raised the issue only to find that there is no one to decide it.

    “THE CONSTITUTION……its only keepers, the people” – G. Washington


  147. Okay Nobamanoway, my curiosity is up too! Did they say “deep south” or Alabama? What in the world would come from Alabama?


  148. A couple of points , in addition.
    1. Is Obama, a Constitutional lawyer, relying on the fact that no one checks? (I Doubt it)
    2. Could the Attorny Generals office just be staying mute until it has jurisdiction?( I doubt that too, but, hope springs eternal!)
    3. What, if anything, could be done to Obama if the Scotus decides he is not qualified BEFORE the president of the Senate( Dick”Gotcha” Cheney) opens the electoral votes?
    4 Is there a possibility he could slip right through?
    All, I repeat all, of these conspiracy theories, thoughts, hours of research, and growing groundswell of patriot support for his removal, could have been avoided by him just being transparent. If nothing else, even if he comes up with all the documentation and its found to be authentic, He is still a devious, and manipulative puppet. He has to be part of a bigger scheme, no one could develop the network of subversives he has in a mere 48 years.
    Just my humble opinion


  149. Critique please. I keep trying to put this issue in a nutshell so it can be more readily shared with friends, legislators, electors, etc. What do you all think of this?

    ————————————–

    The usual notion of “Natural Born Citizen” means that a person is born on USA soil and that both parents (esp. the father) be a US Citizen (of any kind). The specific meaning of Natural Born is that a person receives his citizenship directly as a result of his birth, and not via a law, statute, or “process”.

    “Naturalized Citizens” are those who were once not citizens, but became citizens according to a law and following a specified process.

    One can also become a “Citizen by Statute”. Examples of this include the emancipated slaves and people such as John McCain who were not born on USA soil, but have been declared by statute to be citizens. It is not clearly known if such persons qualify as “Natural Born”.

    The constitution CLEARLY requires that no one can be president unless they are Natural Born Citizens. It doesn’t matter why – it’s just the law. (But if you are curious, here is the reason. The framers of the constitution were extremely concerned about corruption and treason from within. They did everything they reasonably could to protect against this while setting up the nation to be as free and open as possible. The solution adopted was to require the status of Natural Born. Somebody who was once a citizen of somewhere else or who had non-citizen parents was deemed too risky – in terms of possible crossed allegiances.)

    Here are some further notes:

    Since the first 10 Amendments were codified in 1791, the US has made additions or clarifications to the Constitution, via Amendment, 17 times. Changing Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, to read “foreign born” or “dual citizen” has not been one of them.

    Amendments proposing to end the Constitutional requirement of “Natural Born Citizen” have been introduced in Congress subcommittee 26 times since the 1870s, only to have died in subcommittee 26 times.

    In a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll (11/19/2004 through 11/21/2004), 31% favored an amendment to change the “Natural Born Citizen” requirement. 67% of those polled opposed it.

    Based on easily accessible published material and Obama’s own statements, he is NOT Natural Born. Furthermore, as a constitutional lawyer, Obama knows this and has known it for a long time. Is putting oneself forward, as a legitimate/eligible candidate when one knows otherwise, a felony fraud? Is it OK to flaunt the constitution in this matter? Can the constitution be overridden or sidestepped, at will, by a popular vote?


  150. Thank you so very much NOBAMANOWAY for your clarification. In reading some other blogs, I found this interesting timeline. Apparently a gentleman named Chris Strunk from NY has “filed a Freedom of Information Request to the Department of State seeking information regarding Barack Obama’s mother’s foreign travel records as well as a stay of the Electoral College voting until such time as this paperwork is provided to the Electors. ” See this link: http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLatest.htm


  151. Judy you mentioned how all of a sudden McCain and Cindy began to look and act strange during the campaign. The “deer in the headlights” look.

    I have repeated over and over again that during Hillary’s primary run there came a day when I saw that look on her face and Bill’s face as well . And it continued until she finished the primaries and after that when she campaigned for Obama.

    They were obviously threatened or made aware of something very serious that they had NO CONTROL OF.

    To this day I feel that they were threated in one way or the other. Hillary looked AFRAID to me.

    And McCain talked tough but wouldn’t back anything up and wouldn’t allow his campaign to really go after Obama.
    And that goes for the RNC ..what the @ell happened.

    Someday , it may be years from now we will know maybe.

    I just know from the very first time when Obama was running for the Senate and I saw him on local channel news I had an instant distrust and dislike of him. And it was a very strong feeling. Never happened to me before.


  152. Is there a loop hole in the BO mothers age issue? If she was not the proper age, and she was not in the USA long enough then what difference does the BC,COLB,NC make?


  153. NObamanoway–
    Hmm. Could it have to do with Bert Barr, who did already try to get O. and McCain off the Texas ballot? Otherwise, who or what could have a relationship to 3 suits against O. on citizenship?


  154. The Electoral College

    Many posters here are not quite “spot on” in regards the Presidential Electoral process. I’m sure many readers are confused – and the public at-large are clueless. In the past, this has been more of a curiosity than a fundamental issue. But this year with the Obama crisis, the Electors are a critical part of the equation and must be considered and understood properly. Above all, by the people on this most principled of blog sites.

    One must first understand how the United States was founded. It was created from a collection of essentially sovereign states. This whole aspect is worth of a long essay or book by itself, but the important point is that the states considered themselves sovereign and yielded power to the USA Federal Government very grudgingly and frugally. The best modern analogy to the formation of the early United States may be the European Union.

    The constitution specifies that the STATES elect the president, not the PEOPLE. The mechanism for doing this is via Electors. Each state was to provide a specified number of Electors (chosen any way they wished) to attend a convention and deliberate over the choice of a president. The main purpose for this, and the best analogy, is other areas of representational government. After all, we don’t have a popular vote for laws. We elect representatives and send them to a special place (congress) so that they can deliberate and make laws.

    The same philosophy and theory holds in regards selecting a president – The common people do not have the time, energy, or knowledge to adequately select a president. Only by extensive deliberation and analysis can such a monumental choice be made. The original intent was that the Electors would arrive at their convention without a pre-conceived notion of who to select. They would meet, identify candidates, narrow the list, vote, decide. The best analogy of this process that people are familiar with might be the College of Cardinals selecting the next Pope.

    The Electors were supposed to be chosen by each state so that the state’s interests would be advocated and such that the people of each state had confidence for these Electors to represent them. It is critically important to understand that this is indeed the current process and has never been changed.

    The difference, nowadays, is that the states have all evolved into using popular elections to select the Electors. How this got that way is the subject of another long essay or book. Furthermore the Electors are chosen, not as “representatives” as intended, but as advocates for a particular candidate. Candidates are free to identify themselves and campaign ahead of time so that the people can become enamored with them and vote for Electors who are “dedicated” to them. Then, having all the state elections on the same day promotes the FICTION that the people are voting for the president.

    All of this is made significantly worse by the Media. They like popular elections because they can influence them more easily than pure Electoral elections. They continually portray popular election as “the process” while downplaying the Electoral aspects as a curiosity, a legalism, or an anachronism. If the popular vote is ever close to being different than the Electoral vote, they ALWAYS complain that the Electoral vote is at fault rather than the other way around.

    This all explains why Electors are not “bound” by the popular vote. It also explains why in the states where it is law that the Electors follow the popular vote, it is widely held to be unconstitutional. Therefore, in point of law, ALL Electors are free to vote as they choose. This is why it is so critically important to get information to the Electors. They need to know that Obama has not been properly vetted and that voting for him without knowing whether he is eligible or not is a serious constitutional dereliction of duty.

    In the future there may be amendments to re-wicker the presidential voting process nation-wide. But as of now – the only constitutionally approved method of selecting the president is via state-chosen Electors. Popular vote has no constitutional significance.

    My personal observation is that this year proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the founders were extremely wise in their original idea of how this should work. There is a concept called “tyranny of the majority”. We are seeing that loud and clear.


  155. NoBamaNoWay….

    Thanks for the laugh ! :) ……..

    “0bama would not pass his own security questionnaire. But that doesn’t matter because he has a high IQ. And even if he doesn’t have a high IQ, that doesn’t matter because the people believe he does. And even if it is only the people who have low IQ’s that believe he has a high IQ, that doesn’t matter because everything is relative.”

    And I hope your source is good and we have something positive to look forward to.


  156. @ ForMySons

    You are absolutely right. One of biggest ARRRGGHHH-inducing fictions of the moment is this whole Office of the President Elect thing. He is NOT president elect, yet. Period.

    I also don’t think the USSC will rule directly on whether he is eligible or not. I think they may rule on the definition of Natural Born. It is also possible that they will rule in favor of insisting the the State SoS offices perform a check. After all, their duty is to protect the citizens of their respective states. Or more specifically they may insist that State Courts actually rule on these cases rather than tossing them for “standing”.

    But you are correct that if we fail in the near-term, the next step is to get the Electors to question themselves. If that fails, we need to get congress to question the Electors.

    Finally, if that fails, there is already a growing movement to challenge everything Obama ever does or says until this issue is cleared up. So we are not anywhere near “dried up” yet. It’s just that it is SOOOO much better for EVERYBODY to get this cleared up sooner than later.

    We must make sure that Obama knows we will not give up until the truth is known. If he thinks he can hide the truth up until a certain point and then he will be home free – we need him to know that this will not work. We will not rest until the truth is known.


  157. What’s up with Hussein’s fightthesmears.com site with the COLB and “citizenship facts”?

    http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate

    It appears the page is still active, they have removed all content from the page so that it just returns a blank page.

    Very, very interesting . . .


  158. GoodTimePolitics..

    “Whatever happen to the Government for the people, by the people?”

    Uh…Corporate America and now Global Corporatations.

    And citizens who can tell you anything you want to know about “American Idol” , “Dancing With Stars” and sports but not one thing about their govenment .


  159. OK, it’s back up now. Sorry for being the alarmist.


  160. ForMySons.

    I think you have summoned it up really well..and I agree.

    “All, I repeat all, of these conspiracy theories, thoughts, hours of research, and growing groundswell of patriot support for his removal, could have been avoided by him just being transparent. If nothing else, even if he comes up with all the documentation and its found to be authentic, He is still a devious, and manipulative puppet. He has to be part of a bigger scheme, no one could develop the network of subversives he has in a mere 48 years.
    Just my humble opinion”


  161. @ Formysons
    A couple of weeks ago I heard Judge Andrew Napalitano state that a record check, usually a passport, by the Secretary of the Senate would be performed when the electoral count is certified in the Senate on January 6th.

    I believe the current Secretary of the Senate is Nancy Erickson. She worked on Senator Daschle’s staff for many years. The check sounded very routine and ceremonial.

    Does anyone have the SCOTUS docket no. for the Chris Strunk case? I searched the docket and could not find anything yet at SCOTUS.


  162. from http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLatest.htm

    The fourth law suit, challenging Obama’s citizenship and Natural Born status has reached the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS). Click links at state abbreviation for details.

    1. Phil Berg (PA) — An answer from Barack Obama is due at SCOTUS by December 1st. Berg claims that Obama is not a constitutionally-qualified, natural-born citizen and is ineligible to assume the office of President of the United States.” http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLawsuits.htm#Berg

    2. Leo Donofrio (NJ) — The case is scheduled for conference by all 9 SCOTUS judges on December 5th. Donofrios’ suit is against Nina Wells, the New Jersey Secretary of State, claiming that she had not performed her duty to ensure the integrity of the electoral process. http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLawsuits.htm#Donofrio

    3. Chris Strunk (NY) — Filed with SCOTUS last week. Strunk had filed a Freedom of Information Request to the Department of State seeking information regarding Barack Obama’s mother’s foreign travel records as well as a stay of the Electoral College voting until such time as this paperwork is provided to the Electors. http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLawsuits.htm#Strunk

    4. Cort Wrotnowski (CT) — Filed his second case with SCOTUS yesterday. Wrotnowski claims Connecticut Secretary of the State Susan Bysiewicz should not have placed Obama’s name on the ballot without verifying his eligibility for POTUS. http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLawsuits.htm#Wrotnowski


  163. Free America…

    What’s up with Hussein’s fightthesmears.com site with the COLB and “citizenship facts”?

    It appears the page is still active, they have removed all content from the page so that it just returns a blank page.

    Well he did run as a “Blank Page” didn’t he? Ha! :)

    DO ya think it has something to do with the USSC upcoming actions this week????

    Maybe he has a newer new newest version of his COLB form? (snark )


  164. A link was posted above, here is an excerpt from the copy on indonesiamatters website:

    Barrak Hussein Obama II was born to a white American Ann Dunham and Kenyan Barrak Hussein Obama Snr, in Nyang’oma Kogelo now in Kenya.

    [In Indonesia] Neighborhood Muslims worshiped in a nearby house, which has since been replaced by a larger mosque. Sometimes, when the muezzin sounded the call to prayer, Lolo and Barry would walk to the makeshift mosque together, Adi said.

    His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque,” Adi [childhood friend] said. “I remember him wearing a sarong.”

    A blogger responded to the article (his name was legally changed when his mother married, was it ever legally changed to Barack Obama???): “If Barack Obama’s legal name is Barry Soetoro and as President of the United States he signs bills into laws as Barack Obama. All laws signed by your President would be null and void which could create a constitutional crisis in your country.”

    Here is the link:
    http://www.indonesiamatters.com/2952/barry-soetoro/

    Perhaps we should contact the author of the article to ask specifically how he knows Obama was born in Nyang’oma Kogelo, now Kenya. Perhaps you can find out for us, Judah Benjamin? This could be the breakthrough we need.


  165. on November 30, 2008 at 5:33 pm | Reply Researcher on Obama

    I agree with everything except the ending. I believe that the SC will do its job and will declare Obama not eligible. I do not believe there will be major problems. maybe some minor problems but it will all go away quickly.

    I favor Hillary as President because if Obama had not come into the race illegally then Hillary would have won the Presidency. It was shown that she would have won with even more votes then Obama.

    I really enjoyed reading the article as I learned a lot on the details of NBC issue. Judah Benjamin always has wonderful writeups. I did look up Judah Benjamin on the internet but I do not understand why you took the name. Please explain it to us some day.


  166. I agree with Judah that it’s unlikely the Supremes will take up this case, due to the political implications. And it’s even less likely than any congress critter or elector will take up the issue when the electoral votes are counted on Jan. 8.

    Unfortunately, then, we will witness a further dimunition of the Constitution: “natural born” is whatever you wish to define it as. And if, as is commonly accepted now, a child born of foreign subjects — including illegal immigrants — on US soil, is considered a US citizen, we can look forward to the day that such a child, born here, but raised in a foreign country, can simply fulfill the age and minimum residency requirement of 14 years, and be eligible for the highest office in the land, “natural born” and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” being meaningless — without the batting of an eyelash by state governments, Supreme Court Justices, Congress, or the Executive.

    It’s not some planned and orchestrated conspiracy, though — that’s not really how things happen. They happen by the steady and patient assault of those committed to transnational progressivism while the nation sleeps — the gradual abolition of national boundaries, nation states, national laws and national boundaries.


  167. Formysons – above post written Nov 30 at 1:58pm (and yes, I spend so much time on this myself For My Sons):

    Very interesting post. Would you please send it or someone send it to the Attorney General of the United States?

    The Attorney General of the United States needs to qualify Obama after the electoral votes are cast and the president of the Senate counts them … and prior to Jan. 20th.


  168. Interesting article on AIPnews.com.See
    http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1131&posts=3
    It points out an article published by SARAH P. HERLIHY titled “AMENDING THE NATURAL BORN CITIZEN REQUIREMENT: GLOBALIZATION AS THE IMPETUS AND THE OBSTACLE” (see http://lawreview.kentlaw.edu/articles/81-1/Herlihy.pdf). and that Ms. Kerlihy is an associate with with Kirkland & Ellis,a Chicago Law Firm of which Bruce I. Ettelson, P.C. is a partner. Ettelson is listed as a “Member of finance committees of U.S. Senators Barack Obama and Richard Durbin” (see http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm?contentID=220&itemID=7845).
    AIP also points out “Jack S. Levin, P.C., another partner who, in December 2002 was presented the ” Illinois Venture Capital Association’s lifetime achievement award for service to the private equity/venture capital community” presented by Sen. Barack Obama…
    it sure looks like Obama’s people have looked into the matter of “Natural born” as far back as early 2006. What is even more disturbing is that it would appear that they are following the thought of:

    “If the facts do not support the theory, Destroy the facts!”…
    The article’s by Ms. Herlihy concluded that “Ultimately, the emotional reasons to oppose a constitutional amendment abolishing the natural born citizen requirement for presidential eligibility will prevail over the rational reasons…” That …”misunderstandings about what globalization actually is will result in Americans deciding that naturalized citizens should not be president because this would, in effect, be promoting globalization… ” Whether it is because of fear, racism, religious intolerance, or blind faith in the decisions of the Founding Fathers, Americans want to find a way to avoid changing the natural born citizen provision to allow naturalized citizens to be eligible for the presidency…”


  169. Humorously written, but very true, from http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLatest.htm

    Would somebody please inform this egomaniac that there ain’t no such thing as the “Office of the President Elect.”?

    Especially when he is not yet the president elect. That won’t happen until after the Electoral College convenes on December 15th and the Electors vote. The results are then presented to a joint session of Congress on January 6, 2009. Objections may be presented and heard. Then Congress certifies the votes. Only then would Obama be the “president elect.

    Since Obama resigned his seat in the US Senate, he is, at this time, an unemployed private citizen, with no power and no authority — just arrogance.
    ——————
    MY THOUGHTS: Considering he is an unemployed private citizen at this time, I wonder what other ways there are to approach this qualification problem from now until Jan. 6th when the electoral votes are counted and certified?

    There are more than 18 ways to skin a cat, just keep putting your creative thinking caps on and let’s throw the spaghetti against the wall until it finally sticks.


  170. To Judah Benjamin:

    These 2 links don’t work.

    http://www.piecesofeight.us – page not found

    http://www.crashmaker.com – not authorized to view

    Now what is up with that?

    not authorized to view?


  171. Carlyle —

    “In the future there may be amendments to re-wicker the presidential voting process nation-wide. But as of now – the only constitutionally approved method of selecting the president is via state-chosen Electors. Popular vote has no constitutional significance.”

    I agree with you — in the original intent of creating the EC. But you’ll find the majority of arguments/penalties to the contrary in the present day — including movements for the abolition of the Electoral College, since, technically (but not as it has evolved), it does present a threat to a candidate such as Obama, elected in a rush of national “feeling” that in a sane world might stand the chance of cooling off between election date and state elector vote.

    A good example is the opinion of one Mr. Bill Ayers, (who, post-election, admits to being a “family friend” of the apparent winner of the popular vote), writing on his blog of 10/30 that “The Electoral College is a living legacy of slavery and must be overturned in favor of a National Popular Vote.”


  172. Nobamanoway, TD, Judah, See Monsanto in Anniston, Alabama. sp?. Also see military facilities there. Yahoo Monsanto Clinton knew. Yahoo Monsanto in India or Monsanto in Indonesia. Look up Monsanto in Texas City. Then wiki Monsanto. Note info there on FDA, Donald Rumsfield, Justice Clarence Thomas, Michael R Taylor, Dr. Michael Friedman and Linda J. Fisher. May be a possible connection to your information above on Alabama this week. I posted the Monsanto Clinton knew info before here, from someone that dropped a link here at TD. If I remember correctly.


  173. on November 30, 2008 at 6:42 pm | Reply American4America

    Please, help understand this:

    Since there are two California Electors participating in the Keyes lawsuit, can they raise objections during the electoral vote?

    If they do raise objections to the eligibilty of a candidate, how is it resolved during the process of the vote?

    Who runs the Electoral College?

    A4A


  174. Another interesting document that confirms the dual citizenship. I just found this, although it is dated in August.

    http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html


  175. Free America…

    “What’s up with Hussein’s fightthesmears.com site with the COLB and “citizenship facts”?

    It appears the page is still active, they have removed all content from the page so that it just returns a blank page.”

    Well it’s back up again , I wonder if anything has been changed?


  176. NoBamaNoWay: Can you give us a clue, as to what day this news will come out. I only hope that the news is that BOBO will not be PE.


  177. ForMySons, thank you for that very thought provoking article by Bill Russonello. It made absolute sense with question such as who and when ensures the President is qualified according to the language in the constitution.

    The founding fathers were specific on one hand, and seemingly did not address at what point in the process can someone verify qualification for office! Pretty chilling to read the question, have we elected 43 Presidents and never once required proof they qualified under the constitution?

    Obama’s shut down of all things during a period of time in his life and his refusal to deal with the document and qualification issues is more than bizarre. His reasons to hide himself must be very, very deeply serious.


  178. JB, I tried to post the memo here since I was unable to find your email and, comments are in moderation, anyway; but, it disappeared.


  179. How bout this. Do a lawsuit like the Goldmens did v. OJ Simpson. The hurtles to prove your case are much easier. Look where OJ is now.


  180. Here are two official emails that make the public version of Obama’s Birth and his mother’s marriage to BHO Sr. HIGHLY unlikely.

    How could she be in Honolulu in Aug 1961 giving birth, AND 2800 miles away in Seattle attending U of WA?

    From: pubrec@u.washington.edu
    Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008
    Subject: Re: Stanley “Ann” Dunham 1960 to 1970 class registration

    Ms. Stanley Ann Dunham was enrolled at the University of Washington for:

    Autumn 1961
    Winter 1962
    Spring 1962

    Madolyne Lawson
    Office of Public Records
    206-543-9180

    From: Stuart Lau [mailto:stuartl@hawaii.edu]
    Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008
    Subject: Re: Inquiry

    The University of Hawaii at Manoa is only able to provide the following information for Stanley Ann Dunham:
    Dates of attendance:
    Fall 1960 (First day of instruction 9/26/1960)
    Spring 1963 – Summer 1966
    Fall 1972 – Fall 1974
    Summer 1976
    Spring 1978
    Fall 1984 – Summer 1992

    Degrees awarded:
    BA – Mathematics, Summer 1967 (August 6, 1967)
    MA – Anthropology, Fall 1983 (December 18, 1983)
    PhD – Anthropology, Summer 1992 (August 9, 1992)

    Sincerely, Stuart Lau
    ****************************************
    Stuart Lau
    University Registrar
    Office of Admissions and Records
    University of Hawaii at Manoa
    Ph: (808) 956-8010


  181. I finally got around to reading US v. Wong Kim Ark. Sorry, JB, but the S.Ct. in 1898 believed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the children of foreign nationals born in the United States are natural born citizens, following the English Common Law that the children of foreign nationals born in England were natural born subjects. The only exceptions were children of foreign ambassadors and the children of hostile occupiers. Neither of those exceptions apply to Obama. The court stated:

    It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a NATURAL-BORN subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. (emphasis added)

    That, of course, does not automatically mean Obama would win if someone somehow got the issue in front of the SCOTUS. However, the S.Ct. would have to reverse its own precedent, which has been established law for 110 years. The likelihood that the Court would reverse itself in order to nullify a presidential election is almost nil.

    This also means that the suggestions that Obama knows he is ineligible and is defrauding the nation, and that anyone aiding and abetting him are engaged in criminal activity, are false. There is no reason why Obama shouldn’t be able to rely on Wong Kim Ark to establish his eligibility to run for president.


  182. Recently the case of Christopher Shrunk has come up… He wants to obtain information under the Freedom of Information Act , from the Passport records of Ann Dunham at the time she was pregnant with BO.

    Has anyone seen any info on whether Ann Dunham [Soertoro ]was traveling the world on an American passport or on an Indonesian passport subsequent to the adoption of BO by Soetoro? She also was allegedly in Pakistan in the 1980’s.

    It does appear that he would have to renew his passport from Indonesia to travel to Pakistan in the 1980’s.


  183. Just saw this on the message board at Plains Radio Network:

    *** BREAKING NEWS **** Leo has ask for air time tonight

    Hi Folks: Leo has called and asked for ait time. He has just learn something that will have all of us jumping for joy and crying tears of happiness. We are setting it up for a special at 10:00 pm tonight. Join us for what we have been waiting to here since May 31st. Folks it is over.

    I’m not sure if it’s 10pm ET or 10pm CT. The link is:

    http://plainsradio.com/


  184. A couple of remarks regarding Hawaiian birth registration appear in this thread and under other topics on this web site that require some clarification.

    The Certificate of Hawaiian Birth program specifically states that is is for persons “born in Hawaii”.

    Reference http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/hawnbirth.html

    Reference was made to Hawaiian Law §338-17.8 regarding Certificates for children born out of State. This law was passed in 1982, 21 years after Barack Obama’s birth was registered on August 8, 1961.

    Source: http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm


  185. Glenn Beck was talking tonight about the coming of global currency after April (?), an Asian, European, and American currency whereby America’s would be made on parody with all of South America, rendering it worth far less. He said first there was the internet bubble, then the housing bubble, and now that the government is printing funnymoney to cover bailouts, there will be a currency bubble to burst. He expects it will happen in a sweeping emergency fashion, perhaps as a result of Biden’s warned “international crisis”, and he said within a week you would not recognize your country any longer.
    Now, what the heck are we supposed to do with talk like this?
    Our money will be worthless?
    I hate 0bama, I hate all the marxist pigs and Alinsky pigs and all their nefarious destructiveness.


  186. This is one of the few articles that doesn’t put out the myth that John McCain was born in the Canal Zone. Score one for that!

    It does, however, say that McCain released the long form birth certificate. I have not been able to verify that McCain “released it” and thought I read somewhere that it had been obtained through a lawsuit. Any help there would be appreciated.

    The birth certificate one reporter said McCain showed him was definitely not the Panamanian one, but some sort of souvenir signed by the base commander.


  187. He still has until 01 Dec to submit his birth certificate to the Supreme Court (Tomorrow). Him not doing so is the same as Flipping them off like he did Hillary Clinton and John McCain during the so called “Election”. I don’t think that the Supreme Court likes to be Flipped Off. Will wait and see what Tuesday brings. Everyone buy a copy of the Globe tomorrow. It has a Awesome picture of a Raging Barry Soetoro with a story of a book that ties him to Gay Sex (Larry Sinclair), Drugs (also Larry Sinclair) and a Murder (Donald Young).


  188. Can someone explain why Alabama is crucial to all of this. I just want to believe that something major will come out this week that will make Obama NOT be our President Elect. I don’t know how I will be able to stomach 4 years of Obama..I mean Carter. I have been hopeful for months that something will come out with this birth certificate thing that will prove that Obama is a fraud. We all know he was really born in Kenya. If his Birth Certificate were real, he would have released it, he is nothing but a liar and a phony


  189. Richard,

    December 1st is the deadline for Obama to respond to Berg’s petition for a writ. The only issue is whether or not the Court should grant Berg’s petition. If they grant it, the only issue will be whether or not Berg has standing to sue. Obama doesn’t have to provide the SCOTUS with his birth certificate-thats just an internet myth. The SCOTUS is not a trial court-its an appellate court. You don’t submit evidence to the SCOTUS-it only reviews the record created in the lower courts.


  190. Don’t underestimate sweet home, Alabama!


  191. kentucky boy, as JB has explained several times now, a citizen and a natural born citizen represent two separate and distinct concepts, under law. You keep missing the point.

    As to your theory on what BO knows… in law, evading the truth can be offered as evidence indicating lies. And the expectation of what the party in question ‘knows’ about something is gauged in part by an analysis of what a “reasonable person” in his position would be expected to know.


  192. Richard

    Obama does not have to submit his birth certificate to Judge Souter; he, the DNC and the FCC just have to respond to Berg’s petition and have the option not to. Berg then gets to respond to whatever their response is, and then Judge Souter decides whether or not to deny the suit or to refer it for Conference with his other SC colleagues to decide whether to put it in the SC’s list of cases to hear oral arguments from both sides or to reject it.


  193. jbjd,

    I didn’t miss the point. I quoted language straight from US v. Wong Kim Ark. The SCOTUS directly refuted JB’s contention that under English common law the children of foreign nationals born in England were not natural-born subjects.

    BTW, noone has to take my word for it. The citation is 169 US 649. Go read it for yourself.


  194. Leo Donofrio said something interesting this evening on Plains Radio.

    He said that the notice Nancy Pelosi signed to certify Obama and Biden to the various State Elections Boards after the Nov. 2nd elections said, “Certify the Nomination” and not “Certify the Qualifictions” of the two nominees.

    Um, it seems the Democrat Party is using weasel words, or smarty-pants lawyering here, rather than being being honest.

    Any one?


  195. on December 1, 2008 at 1:34 am | Reply Objective Analysis

    For non-lawyers, Kentucky boy; Judah Benjamin, Texas Darlin, and others:

    U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark’s holding is not the important part of the case. The question presented was whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who at the time of his birth are subjects of the emperor of China, but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution: ‘All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.’ U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 649, 653 (1898).

    The S.Ct. holding is based on that decision. The relevant portions that makes Wong Kim Ark important is their DEFINITION of natural born citizen. The relevant pages of this are on pages 656 through 663. What this case does is explain the origin of the term, natural born citizen, and state the syllogism (on page 663) that is applies for.

    What the legal system will refer to is the meaning, not actually the Court’s holding because that is based on a fact by fact basis depending on the question presented.

    What Perkins v. Elg does is expand on the meaning in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark by giving EXAMPLES of what they consider to be a citizen of US and natural born citizen.

    Judge Bingham’s explanation of what a natural born citizen in drafting the 14th Amendment corroborates the meaning in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark and Perkins v. Elg. That is why Donofrio and Wortworkski’s case is strong and will work. The logic as purported on Judah Benjamin’s post is accurate and now has LEGAL BACKING to be one that the S.Ct. will resolve.

    Don’t be surprised if the S.Ct. decides this case 9-0 in favor of Donofrio and Wortworkski in order to send a message to the DNC, RNC and others like in Marbury v. Madison in 1803.

    That is all lawyers were trying to tell you non-lawyers. You guys are on the right track, keep up the good work in expressing your views. Lawyers are here to help you, not condemn you in your efforts to do right and perserve our US Constitution. But, we want to make sure you understand the legal side to it as well.
    The S.Ct.


  196. on December 1, 2008 at 1:39 am | Reply Objective Analysis

    The S.Ct. just needs legal cases (highest level of authority is S.Ct. cases, next is the Circuit Court of appeals, then are federal district court cases) and federal law (highest level of authority is the U.S. Constitution, next is federal statute by Congress, and then everything else) to present the issue before the Courts of Law as CONTROLLING AUTHORITY, not just persuasive authority.

    US v. Wong Kim Ark, Perkins v. Elg provide that and legally corroborate Judah Benjamin’s logic.


  197. Is there a way for you to add ‘Share’ buttons for Digg.com, etc?

    This info is so important, but with the copyright wasn’t sure if it could be shared on those sites. The link would come back to your website for those who wanted to read it.


  198. EmCrouchon, here is a link to a picture of the Certification document. Ms. Pelosi signed a Certification of Nomination after the Democratic National Convention; but in this document, she only promised he is the Party’s nominee and not that he is Constitutionally eligible for the job. Some states, like GA, enacted laws that say, the nominee submitted by the state Party chair for inclusion on the general election ballot, “shall” be eligible for the office sought. But no law says, anyone has to check.

    http://countusout.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/foia-request-response-from-va-document-from-va-sos-signed-by-nancy-pelosi-stating-that-pelosi-certified-obamas-qualifications/dnc-certification_of_nomination-082908-2/


  199. kentucky boy

    IF those foreign-born parents are NATURALIZED US Citizens, then the child is natural born.

    If they are still and only citizens of another country, then no, the child is not natural born.

    0bama Sr. was a Kenyan, never naturalized American, only ever a foreign student.


  200. Kudos for the detail in your work, but as any lawyer will tell you, it’s quite a stretch to use the information you’ve provided to definitively glean the legislative intent of the founders in general when drafting the natural born citizen clause. The clause was adopted with little or no discussion and has been conventionally understood to include people who are born in the United States, with some exceptions which you have noted (ambassador parents, etc.). The plain meaning (”plain meaning” is the cornerstone of statutory/constitutional interpretation) of “natural born” would seem to capture someone like Obama, who was “naturally born” in Hawaii, a U.S. State at the time. You would need compelling evidence of legislative intent to the contrary to overcome the plain meaning of the clause (like obvious exceptions where the parent is an ambassador or leader of another country). Even looking at your extensive research, very little of it would give definitive insight into the views of the writers of the natural born citizen clause or of the founders in general when they enacted the clause. The “divided loyalties” theory is interesting, but without strong indication in the framers’ constitutional discussions about the clause, such a theory isn’t indicated by the plain meaning or confirmed by the discussions surrounding the natural born citizen clause.

    You give alot of evidence that such a theory “may” have been in the minds of the drafters of the natural born citizen clause, but a strict constructionalist like Scalia or Roberts would ask the obvious question of “why didn’t they explicitly preclude those who might have dual citizenship from ‘natural born’ status?” or “why didn’t they explicitly discuss this preclusion when then enacted the clause?” Without an answer to that question, this theory will likely go nowhere, even for the conservatives on the Court.


  201. RE: jbjd

    According to what I heard Cort Wrotnowski and Leo Donofrio say on Plains Talk Radio tonight, is that the Sourth Carolina State Board of Elections is demanding that the Democrats provide definative proof (documentation) that their nominees meet the required qualifications to be President and Vice President.

    Donofrio also stated that the State of Virginia is making the same demand.

    Could this be what may be happening with Alabama?


  202. on December 1, 2008 at 3:33 am | Reply Judah Benjamin

    To kentucky boy

    I would think that it is perfectly obvious that I am aware of what the Common Law position on natural-born subjects is. Calvin’s Case can be applied. However, pure ius soli does not apply if you admit to a foreign allegiance, as Obama, via his surrogates, has. In an ideal world he would indeed be a natural-born citizen but it isn’t an ideal world. I can support everything jbjd said. You, like others, continue to confuse citizenship by birth, or birthright citizenship, with natural-born citizenship. Wong Kim Ark is not a precedent here and many argue it does not have the force of stare decisis because it inaccurately states the Common Law position and ignores the Intention of the Framers of the XIVth Amendment to boot. I am not arguing that Obama isn’t a citizen but under the Common Law definition he isn’t natural-born and the very statement you yourself give proves it.


  203. on December 1, 2008 at 3:34 am | Reply Judah Benjamin

    To J.J. (The PUMA)

    For months, in fact ever since my first article on this blog, people like yourself have been claiming that the natural-born citizen issue is a dead letter. Yet, it is the first issue to reach the Supreme Court. Why do you think that is the case? The answer is that it is the only issue to date that doesn’t rely on any doubtful evidence or assertions and that it is based on valid legal points that can only be argued before a court. Any defect of paperwork would aid this case but perfect paperwork need not derail it.

    I agree with Alan Keyes, BHO II isn’t an African American, he is half Kenyan Luo (give or take) and half Caucasian American and for good measure has a partly Asian Education. His Prep School was racially mixed, he was largely under the influence of his grandparents and mother who were Caucasians and his stepfather, who was Indonesian. The bulk of his teachers and professors were Caucasian, or Asian. He basically never even met an African American until he
    was in his late teens. He is posing as an African American but he isn’t one.

    What do you think is on the Long Form Vault Copy of BHO II’s Certificate of Live Birth?

    I know what I think is on his Hawaiian Record that he so urgently doesn’t want you to see and it has nothing to do with Arab DNA, or any other kind of DNA. It is yet another legal technicality, a big one. But it is just as technical as his UK & C citizenship at birth. Worse it may be DOJ or USCIS business and not amenable to civil action.

    I really hope you don’t believe Kenneth Lamb’s speculation that ” Mr. Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side. He is 43.75% Arabic, and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side.” I hope you don’t because I have read British Colonial Records and Lamb’s claim “Research the Kenyan records for yourself. You will find that his father was officially classified as “Arab African” by the Kenyan government.” is not supported by them. Even had it been, there are several other problems. In fact I have been unable to find the term Arab African used anywhere outside Lamb’s article except for some German Colonial records of the 1880s. I’d have to say exactly what Lamb said, research the Kenyan records for yourself, perhaps you will find something that I haven’t.

    Firstly, in order to have a record of that nature you would have to employ a system far more exact than anything the British ever used in Africa. The British just said “European, Coloured, Native”, no numerical calculations, those seem to be purely an American idea, and pretty recent at that. You would also have to ignore the fact that some settled tribal entities of today were in point of fact invented by the British.

    Secondly, you would have to be able to tell me more about BHO, Sr’s family than any record I have seen does (for example give me his exact date of birth, even the exact year. Or his mother’s tribe, etc.).

    Thirdly, you would need to have the appropriate fields on Hawaiian
    Documentation and BHO, Sr, would have needed to fill them out correctly. I have seen an original Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth from 1960 and another from 1963, the fields aren’t there. Incidentally there is no field for Religion on the document either.

    Finally, you would need to establish that Kenneth Lamb is either a physical anthropologist or knowledgeable about genetics. Lamb describes himself thus “Journalist, Columnist, Radio/TV Host, Theologizer”. If you don’t know a “Theologizer” is a person who writes about Theology who is not a Theologian and who hasn’t studied Theology. Ring any warning bells? A poetaster isn’t a
    poet, a theologizer isn’t a theologian and a quack isn’t a doctor. I used to be a journalist, columnist and editor but that doesn’t make me an expert on Comparative Anthropology or Racial Genetics, if the latter is a field that even exists.

    I’m not insulting Kenneth Lamb, he is a good journalist but he isn’t an expert on East African Cultural and Physical Anthropology. Neither am I but I do now have quite a good library on Colonial Kenya and Zanzibar and I know enough to know what I don’t know and cannot prove. [See for example: "Divide and Rule: State-sponsored Ethnic Violence in Kenya", Binaifer Nowrojee, Bronwen Manby, Human Rights Watch (1993), "The East Africa Protectorate", Charles
    Eliot, E. Arnold (1905), "The Statesman's Year-book: Statistical and Historical Annual of the States of the World", Frederick Martin, John Scott Keltie, St. Martin's Press (1922). I have a lot more, including an English copy of the Kenyan Constitution and Colonial Reports.].

    Lamb’s theory seems to be at least partly based on the fact that BHO II’s African relatives have Arabic names. Unfortunately, BHO II’s grandfather converted to Islam after WWI, took an Arabic name and gave his children Arabic names, all of which is pretty normal in a convert and says nothing about Ethnicity at all. Is every man you meet called Paul a Greek, or every woman called Ruth Jewish? Of course not. Are Mohamed Ali and Tariq al Mansour Arabs? No they aren’t. Mohamed Ali was Cassius Clay and Tariq al Mansour was Donald Warden, both are African Americans and both may have some Arab blood because many slaves did have but they aren’t Arab Americans and its very unlikely BHO II is either.

    Sorry, but that dog won’t fight.

    My next article will be about BHO II’s documentation, etc. You may find it interesting and then again you may not. I’ll give my views on why he is prepared to spend any amount of money to ensure we don’t see any of it, including his real Certificate of Live Birth.

    To EmCrouchon

    Yes I’ve seen that. Unfortunately, the writer is confusing BHO II with his father, or at least that seems to be the case.

    To Dean M.

    Do you not notice the word used in your quote is “native”? Native and
    natural-born are not the same concept in the Common Law. To which you may add that Hamilton was not even a natural-born subject of the Crown because he had held a total of five allegiances during his lifetime, three at birth. I have read Madison’s notes and also the Federalist Papers. The Framers could have seen themselves as natural-born citizens of their respective Colonies, as well as natural-born subjects of the British Crown, but that is a thing apart from a
    natural-born citizen of the United States, a condition manifestly impossible prior to 1776. Note that there were people who remained citizens of some States, in succession to Colonies and never became citizens of the USA. You cannot torture natural-born to have the meaning you are giving it Dean, at least in my view, and I’ve read a bit on the topic. Please try to get away from the idea that either Leo C Donofrio, or I, are idiots who don’t read extensively and carefully.

    You might also consider that the Hon. James Wilson LLD, remember you mentioned Wilson, said this:

    “Does this inestimable inheritance follow the person of the citizen; or is it fixed to the spot, on which the citizen first happened to draw the breath of life? On this great question, it will be proper to consider what the law of England, and, also, what the law of reason says. Perhaps both will speak substantially the same language.”

    “As citizens, who emigrate, carry with them their laws, their best birthright; so, as might be expected, they transmit this best birthright to their posterity. By the statute 25. Edw. III. says my lord Bacon, which, if you believe Hussey, is but a declaration of the common law, all children, born in any part of the world, if they be of English parents, continuing, at that time, as liege subjects to the king, and having done no act to forfeit the benefit of their allegiance, are, ipso
    facto, naturalized. If divers families of English men and women plant
    themselves at Lisbon, and have issue, and their descendants intermarry among themselves, without any intermixture of foreign blood; such descendants are naturalized to all generations; for every generation is still of liege parents, and therefore naturalized; so as you may have whole tribes and lineages of English in foreign countries And therefore it is utterly untrue that the law of England cannot operate, but only within the bounds of, the dominions of England.”

    “Natural born subjects have a great variety of rights, which they acquire by being born in the king’s ligeance, and can never forfeit by any distance of place or time, but only by their own miss behaviour; the explanation of which rights is the principal subject of the law. 1. Bl. Com. 371.”

    “A citizen may leave the kingdom: an alien may enter it. Does the former lose? Does the latter acquire the rights of citizenship? No. Neither climate, nor soil, nor time entitle one to those rights: neither climate, nor soil, nor time can deprive him of them. Citizens, who emigrate, carry with them, in their emigration, their best and noblest birthright.”

    See: “The Works of the Honourable James Wilson, L.L.D., Late One of the Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States, and Professor of Law in the College of Philadelphia”, Bronson and Chauncey (1804). Yes I have all three volumes.

    In short, Wilson used Blackstone and your theory is, I am afraid, flawed. I didn’t bring up Wilson’s views previously because I wanted an introit, you gave it. By Wilson’s logic BHO II certainly wouldn’t be a natural-born citizen, actually he would be a natural-born subject of the British Crown, since according to Wilson both of his parents would have been subjects of the Crown. By Wilson’s logic McCain would be natural-born. Wilson, by the way, was a Framer, unlike Jay. It is also worthwhile to note that Wilson’s books represent a serious impediment to those like Lawrence B Solum, John E Cribbet Professor of Law and Professor of Philosophy at the University of Illinois, who attempt to claim that the US Common Law concept of natural-born citizen did not simply develop from the English Common Law concept of natural-born subject. [See: "Originalism and the Natural Born Citizen Clause", Michigan Law Review (2008)] I’m not that impressed by Solum’s view you may gather but his paper is not without interest.

    I’ve said before, I think, that I have read all of the Federalist Papers, why did you not believe me? I also had to write a paper or two on Wilson, back in the day.

    I have “The Federalist and Other Constitutional Papers”, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, James Madison, Erastus Howard Scott, Albert, Scott & Co. (1894), I also have the 1851 Trow edition of Hamilton’s Papers, among others. Actually there are a number of lawyers who have envied me the legal portion of my collection, including my 1791 Strahan and Woodfall edition of Blackstone with the Burn and Williams additions. My Kent is the Halstead Second Edition of 1832. There are some advantages in coming from a legal family.

    As a matter of definition no-one could be a natural-born citizen of the United States prior to its existence. Law, logic, language and just plain old fashioned commonsense all make that argument untenable. An individual could be a 35 year old natural-born subject of the Crown and a natural-born citizen of New York in 1774 and a 37 year old citizen of the United States and a natural-born citizen of New York in 1777 but that same individual could not be a natural-born citizen of the United States because in 1740 there was no such entity. To be natural-born you have to be born in an allegiance and you can’t have an allegiance to a non-existent entity. The colonists’ status as ligeants of the Crown would have been cancelled under the Common Law by the Treaty of Paris in 1783 because it is an accepted fact that allegiance can be cancelled by mutual agreement of the Sovereign Power and subjects or citizens. That would clear Wilson too but not Hamilton because he would have needed to get his natural-born allegiances to Louis XVIth and Charles IIIrd, or Prince Charles Edward Stewart, the Jacobite Claimant to the British Crown, cancelled. I don’t know if you are being deliberately misleading or if you just haven’t tried applying simple logic, either way I don’t buy it.

    To Kevin

    We here strive for both accuracy and fairness.

    If McCain’s certificate was released as a result of a law suit, or voluntarily makes no difference, he released it. You are parsing here. BHO II has released exactly nothing which is admissible in even a Hawaiian Court as full and complete proof of birth circumstances.

    The Report of Birth of a Citizen of the United States of America and the Certificate of Citizenship for the child of an officer on Military Service can be signed by the Adjutant, or the Commanding Officer acting as Registrar and in place of a Consular Officer. At least that is my current understanding. Thus McCain’s Certificate would not be a “souvenir” but the correct Official Document. As for the Panamanian Certificate of Live Birth, I have no idea if it has ever existed at all. If it doesn’t it would provide strong evidence that the Republic of Panama has never claimed jurisdiction over McCain.

    As for the citations from the Hawaiian Code, you are correct that people, including myself, quote the 1982 Law. This is because, until recently, nobody has managed to disinter a copy of the Code as it stood in 1961. However, I have recently got hold of a copy of the Hawaiian Code of 1911 and am working on it. From what I have seen to date, the Law in 1911 and the Law in 1982 were substantially the same, there are some changes due to Statehood and a few changes of phrase, but the impact seems identical.


  204. http://countusout.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/obama1.pdf

    Note: Above is link to a Rhode Island election form that Obama signed verifying that he is eligible under the Constitution to run for President.

    I accidentally came across it while searching the web for Obama information.

    Note: Notice Obama’s signature, and then compare it to Obama’s “signature” on his selective service card that is being displayed on the web.

    To me, the signature on the Rhode Island form does not look close in appearance to the signature on the selective service card.

    I post the link to the Rhode Island presidential eligibility document here in case other posters might be interested in looking at it and commenting on it.

    Note: If anyone here has links to similar documents that Obama signed in other states, let us know.


  205. Interesting about the three states making these demands. I can see SC (GOP governor and state leadership) or even AL, but Virginia? The Gov of VA controls the SBE, and he was the earliest elected official to come out for O, becoming his natl campaign chair.


  206. Nobamanoway,

    US v. Wong Kim Ark says nothing about a requirement that ones parents be naturalized citizens in order for one to qualify as “natural born”. JB’s argument is based on his claim that under English common law, a child born in England was not a natural born subject if the child’s parents were foreign nationals. The SCOTUS came to the opposite conclusion. I will once again quote the pertinent language from Wong Kim Ark:

    It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a NATURAL-BORN subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. (emphasis added)

    Is it possible that the SCOTUS was wrong and JB is right? Certainly, but under the principle of Stare Decisis, the SCOTUS isn’t going to reverse itself unless there is an extremely good reason to do so. And there is no good reason to nullify the presidential election.


  207. Today and Wednesday a full apge ad in being run in the main news section of the Chicago Tribune questioning Obama’s citizenship.

    http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org…2008-11-28.htm


  208. If you have not done so, please sign the petition.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=81550


  209. It would be unreal news if they actually found the backbone to demand documents.
    But imagining that it might happen might be a hoot -here is BOs press conference;

    BO: Uh, huh, ah, uh, arg, You uh may have um heard that, uh the State uh South uh Carolina um has taken me, my uh candidacy off the ballot. Uh huh um this is a uh grave error-
    I uh am not uh a crook uh or a fraud um and these gentlemen uh um wearing Marshalls uniforms uh here uh today um huh are only for security only hum and they are not uh hum here to uh take me uh huh to Kenya. But uh huh I am going to refer um um all further questions to uh Joe over here um huh for now. I have to run…….wheres my Seal-grandma wants it-

    Joe: Stand up Chuck….uh oh-


  210. Behind the Screwy Obama Birth Certificate Controversy
    by Earl Ofari Hutchinson
    November 30, 2008

    At first glance it defied credulity that the staid, respected Chicago
    Tribune would do something as screwball as giving any credence to the issue
    of whether President-elect Barack Obama is really a U.S. citizen or not. But
    the Tribune will run not one but two big splashy ads paid for by a quasi
    libertarian outfit named http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org based in Queensbury,
    New York. The group demands that Obama produce his original birth
    certificate with all the official markings and proper affixed signatures on
    it. The one that the Hawaii Department of Health officials made public last
    June was an electronic copy of the certificate.

    Unfortunately, Hawaii officials left just enough room for the Obama birth
    certificate hounders to wiggle through when they correctly noted that
    privacy laws forbade them from releasing original documents without the
    authorization of the individual for which the documents are requested; in
    this case that individual being Obama.

    Obama at the time and since then has also correctly declined to give any
    more ammunition to the birth certificate hounders. His campaign simply
    issued a statement that the document released by Hawaii officials is
    authentic. But that just emboldened the Obama hounders even more. Nearly a
    million have taken a gander at a You Tube clip on the controversy, dozens of
    websites fuel the rumor mill about his certificate, and a pile of articles
    have rehashed the issue of whether the birth certificate that Hawaii
    produced is legit. Nearly two dozen lawsuits or petitions have been filed in
    various state courts contesting Obama´s U.S. citizenship (one of them was
    filed by political gadfly Alan Keyes).

    The Tribune ads won´t help matters. But it probably wouldn´t have made much
    difference if the paper had refused the ad. The online mill would still
    crank away about the certificate. Wagging tongues fan a controversy and
    that´s always good for website looks and business. As for We the People, it
    has used the controversy as a fund raising chip (gimmick).

    But that´s less important for some than finding any issue no matter how
    farfetched to further stoke the paranoid suspicions of more than a few about
    Obama. Those suspicions were deeply implanted the moment that he declared
    his presidential candidacy in 2007. They rumbled above and underneath the
    surface throughout the campaign, and never stopped when he won.

    He was not black enough. He was too black. He was not patriotic enough. He
    was too liberal, too effete, too untested. He was a Muslim, terrorist fellow
    traveler, and a closet black radical. The shock of an Obama in the White
    House is simply too much for many to bear. Obama defies the stereotypical
    textbook look and definition of what an American president is supposed to
    look like, and be like; namely a wooden image middle-aged, or older, white
    male.

    Obama said as much during a campaign stop in late July when he quipped that
    he did not look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills. Obama
    got torched for saying the obvious and that is that his candidacy was
    different. Obama later admitted that it was a racial reference. The off the
    cuff remark simply reinforced the point that he and his candidacy marked a
    turning point in U.S. presidential politics and by extension race relations.

    The Obama birth certificate hounders have kept the issue alive with some
    mainstream papers by crudely cloaking their motives. They depict themselves
    as public spirited citizens and legal experts with no personal, political,
    let alone racial, ax to grind. Their sole goal is to insure electoral truth
    and accuracy, to make sure that all the legal requirements for holding a
    presidential office are met, and to head off a constitutional crisis. They
    claim they want to put the matter to rest for good before his January 20
    inauguration.

    Their fantasy is that the U.S. Supreme Court will help them out and demand
    that Obama produce his supposed “real” birth certificate and if not declare
    the election null and void. The Supreme Court hasn´t made any demand on
    Obama to pony up his birth certificate, and likely won´t. Even if a justice
    or two had a stray thought about taking a peek at the issue, the memory of
    the fury over the court´s meddle in the 2000 election that ultimately tipped
    the White House to Bush is still too fresh in their and the public´s mind to
    butt in on such a wacky issue.

    The bad thing about the controversy over Obama´s birth certificate is not
    that some print publications have dignified the issue by running paid hit
    ads on it, but that the ads were even conjured up in the first place. And
    even worse that so many millions are still willing to believe that it´s an
    issue at all.

    Earl Ofari Hutchinson is an author and political analyst. His forthcoming
    book is How Obama Won (Middle Passage Press, January 2009).

    I downloaded a pdf copy of the WTP-Obama ad from the Chicago Tribune this morning.


  211. Judah Benjamin,
    Thank you for another excellent post!


  212. Carlyle,

    Thank you for several excellent comments. You are very correct about the founders’ wisdom in creating the Electoral College. There is an active effort to subvert the Constitution and change the rules without a constitutional amendment. It is called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. Many citizens today act like they are more wise than the founders, but the founders had studied every form of government man has had since the dawn of creation. They were exceptionally wise men, and in my opinion, inspired by God. There is tremendous wisdom in using an Electoral College, not a national popular vote, to elect our President and Vice-President.

    I would add that if the 50 state legislatures actually voted in the legislature to choose electors (rather than choosing them by popular vote), then the electorate might start paying more attention to who they elect to state government.

    I believe that the NBC issue is significant, but the possibility of Obama/Soetoro being an Indonesian citizen (and an “undocumented” illegal alien in the U.S.) is an even bigger concern. ESPECIALLY when you take into consideration that there is a very real possibility that Obama/Soetoro’s intention may be to bring Jihad from Jakarta (capital city of Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim nation) to the White House (the seat of the Executive branch of our government).

    Read the following to see how Obama/Soetoro’s book “The Audacity of Hope”, when printed in Indonesia, was not given a translated title, but rather a totally new title, one that suggests:

    Jihad: From Jakarta to the Whitehouse

    He’s also said:

    But my journey is part of a larger journey – one shared by all who’ve ever sought to apply the values of their faith to … bring an Empire to its knees.

    He claims to be a “committed Christian”, but even Drudge has pointed out that since the election Obama has skipped church to go to the gym. We all know that the “church” Obama attended for over 20 years was led by a “pastor” who said, “God d-mn America” and repeated Malcolm X’s words about “Chickens coming home to roost”.

    I ask, in all seriousness, Is Barack Hussein Obama a Jihadist Muslim?


  213. Mayor of Birmingham busted at 7AM on currently unknown Federal charges, according to AP. This mayor was involved in a bond scandal. Besides the analogy to Detroit, how can this impact on O?
    But if states demand verifiable documentation, now that is really something, because they can pursue the fraud angle of the nominating and election process.


  214. Folks it’s official “The Pentagon to Detail Troops to Bolster Domestic Security”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217_pf.html

    So what will be next?


  215. [...] Going On? By itooktheredpill on November 29, 2008 at 10:39 pm Missy Bear said: I find all of the postings and particularly JB’s factual presentation of [...]


  216. on November 29, 2008 at 10:39 pm Missy Bear

    …can someone please address who or what is driving the BHO presidential bid. Is it a giant conspiracy, ignorance (which I doubt, except for the ordinary voter), complacency or some unknown? Whatever it is we need to know.

    Here’s my explanation.


  217. on November 30, 2008 at 6:48 pm Free America

    Another interesting document that confirms the dual citizenship. I just found this, although it is dated in August.

    http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html

    Also at that link:

    Favorite movies: “The Godfather” (Parts I and II) and “Lawrence of Arabia.”

    Great. His favorite movies are about the mafia and Arabia.

    [half sarcasm, half serious]


  218. [...] BENJAMIN ARTICLE CONCERNING NATURAL BORN CITIZEN AND THE COMMON LAW On November 28, 2008, Judah Benjamin published an article at the Texas Darlin blog which discussed my case and the natural born citizen issue.  While I enjoyed reading this article, [...]


  219. From Drudgereport.com “The Pentagon is going to have a domestic military service in the United States. So what will be next?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217_pf.html


  220. Clara

    The founding fathers were specific on one hand, and seemingly did not address at what point in the process can someone verify qualification for office! Pretty chilling to read the question, have we elected 43 Presidents and never once required proof they qualified under the constitution?

    This isn’t the first time that someone who was not a Natural Born Citizen of the U.S. ran for President of the U.S.

    George Wilcken Romney (father of Mitt Romney) was the 43rd governor of Michigan from 1963 to 1969 and was a candidate for President in 1968, even though he was born to US parents in Mexico.

    Had George Romney, not Richard Nixon, won the Republican nomination and the popular vote in the general election, he could have been challenged in the same way that Obama/Soetoro is being challenged now.

    But, this is not a matter of “innocent until proven guilty“, this is a matter of “ineligible until proven eligible“.

    FYI, Wikipedia (I know, not the best source to cite) currently says:

    It is notable that while Romney was born in Mexico, he was still considered to be a viable and legal candidate to run for office. His Mormon grandfather and his three wives fled to Mexico in 1886, but none of them ever relinquished their citizenship. While the Constitution does provide that a president must be a natural born citizen, the first Congress of the United States in 1790 passed legislation stating: “The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States.” Romney and his family fled Mexico in 1912 prior to the Mexican revolution. However, the Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed the Act of 1790 and changed the status of such children born to US Citizens abroad to that of citizen. Therefore, Romney, if challenged, would likely have been ruled ineligible for the office of President.


  221. on December 1, 2008 at 1:54 pm | Reply naturalborncitizen

    Typo in my comment….

    “But at the common law, naturalized citizens WERE considered to be “NATIVE BORN SUBJECTS”.

    should have read

    “But at the common law, naturalized citizens WERE considered to be “NATURAL BORN SUBJECTS”.


  222. EmCrouchon and jbjd –

    Back in the summer, Dr. Kate posted a story urging citizens to contact their Secretary’s of State Board of Elections. I did. I live in Virginia. I was told that the Secretary did contact the FEC to verify Barry’s eligibility and she was told he was eligible. Additionally, I strongly recommended to the Secretary to read Judah’s two part series on Barry’s Indonesian background. The links were forwarded onto her. Whether she read them or not I do not know.

    The next thing I heard was the suit filed, madmanus – I just know I spelled this wrong – in Virginia seeking eligibility by the SOS of Barry. My understanding is the case was dismissed but I do not recall on what grounds.

    One thing I can attest to when it comes to Virginia’s Secretary of the State Board of Elections is that she is a person of great integrity, dogged in seeking the truth, non partisan and law abiding.

    You also need to remember that Virginia’s Governor officially endorsed Barry within a week of his announcing his run for POTUS. You may recall that Governor Kaine was considered for VP…smokescreen or not he was considered. It was Governor Kaine who appointed her.

    Virginia’s process of appointment is the Governor makes the nomination which is then approved by both state chambers. Currently, the House is controlled by the R’s and the Senate by the D’s.

    I say all of this for one reason. If, and this is a BIG IF, Virginia’s Secretary of the State Board of Elections is demanding verification of eligibility then I’m comforted by the fact that our Secretary has taken a lead and is demanding proof. She is the right person, IMHO, for the job.


  223. on December 1, 2008 at 2:07 pm | Reply naturalborncitizen

    MESSAGE FROM LEO DONOFRIO

    Please see my blog http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com

    for a reply to Mr. Benjamin’s interesting article…


  224. [...] featured a commentary by Judah Benjamin on November 28 concerning Leo’s case, Donofrio v. Wells, as well as the [...]


  225. Anyone feel like updating Wikipedia’s Natural-born citizen” entry to correct the fallacy in bold below?

    The United States Constitution requires that Presidents (and Vice Presidents) of the United States be natural-born citizens of the United States. While it is undisputed that people born in the US are qualified to hold the office of President, and that naturalized U.S. citizens are disqualified from holding that office, it is disputed whether people born to US-citizen parents outside the United states are natural-born citizens or not.

    Of course, the fallacy is that merely being born in the U.S. makes you a Natural Born Citizen, and that there is no dispute about this.

    It should read:

    it is undisputed that people born in the US, to parents who are both U.S. citizens, are qualified to hold the office of President

    it is disputed whether people born to US-citizen parents outside the United states, or people born in the U.S. to parents who are not both US-citizens, are natural-born citizens or not.


  226. Brilliantly researched and written. That you know WHAT to research and WHY is as important as the conclusions you draw from it. With your permission, I would like to submit this work along with Parts 1 and 2 of Divided Loyalties to Justice Clarence Thomas. Please let me know if this is okay by email. Thank you for all the time spent on these works….as I said….BRILLIANT.


  227. Nobamanoway – is this the news from Alabama you suggested would be breaking this week? I’d say it’s a biggie!

    Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford was arrested this morning on federal charges and is being held at the federal courthouse, the FBI and other federal officials confirm.

    See documents and past stories from the investigation of Langford.

    A special grand jury for several months has been investigating county bond deals and Langford’s financial dealings. Langford was Jefferson County Commission president 2002-06.

    Al LaPierre, a close friend of Langford’s who also was part of the federal investigation, will be surrendering today, said his attorney, Tommy Spina.

    David McKnight, Montgomery banker Bill Blount’s attorney, said Blount is on his way to Birmingham from Montgomery to surrender.

    The Langford, LaPierre and Blount indictments are under seal, so details of the charges are not available.

    Langford, LaPierre and Montgomery investment banker Bill Blount are accused in a U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission lawsuit of not disclosing $156,000 in payments to Langford. The SEC has accused Blount of paying Langford through LaPierre as part of a plan to secure Jefferson County financial business when Langford was Jefferson County Commission president. (Read the May 2008 story)

    The SEC lawsuit against Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford fails to show how friends’ personal payments to Langford led to $6.7 million in government business, their lawyers said in a filing seeking dismissal of the suit this summer.

    Former Jefferson County Commissioner John Katopodis was indicted in October on fraud charges stemming from his involvement with Computer Help for Kids, a charity established by Langford when Langford was mayor of Fairfield. Katapodis was arraigned on those charges in mid-November. Details of those charges.

    This statement was released from the mayor’s chief of staff, Deborah Vance-Bowie.:

    “As you know, the Mayor was detained this morning by federal authorities. We do not know the details of his detention at this time. City business will go on as usual as we are all here to do a job and we’ll continue to do our jobs to ensure we deliver the best services to the taxpayers of Birmingham. This is certainly no surprise to us — we anticipated something happening soon especially knowing Alice Martin’s days in office are numbered with the swearing in of a new president in late January — just a little over a month from now. We are glad the mayor will finally have his day in court. As members of his team, we stand behind him and look forward to the day when we can return the focus to the important issues before the city.”

    http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2008/12/birmingham_mayor_larry_langfor_15.html


  228. Donofrio now located at naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com
    He responds to Judah B.’s article.


  229. I live in Chicago, and bought today’s Tribune. The ad was there in all its glory, page 21. If nothing else, this will make people think, and maybe even do a little research. Of that, I am sure!


  230. Dear TD and Judah:

    This is in the Philadelphia newspaper this am.

    http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=20210273

    Have a nice day


  231. From Beckwith’s “Latest News” section at theobamafile.com
    “The Democratic Party is engaged in nothing short of a coup d’état defined as a sudden unconstitutional overthrow a government by a part of the state establishment.”


  232. [...] to the Judah Benjamin thesis on Barack Obama’s eligiblity  which was published at TD Blog two days ago.  Doonofrio writes: While I enjoyed reading this article, and I agree with the [...]


  233. TD; you should start a new thread about responses they get back from our elected officials, who fail to do their job.

    I recieved the following from my State Senator.
    Please be advised whereas “The Constitution and federal law require that, among other things, only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both American citizens) may be President of the United States.”
    This senator believes that both Obama’s parents are US citizens.

    I have included my reply to him also.

    From: senator_XXXXXXX@XXXXXX.senate.gov
    To: XXXXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXX.com
    Subject: Correspondence from Senator XXXXXXXX
    Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:30:59 -0500

    December 1, 2008

    XXXXXXXX

    Dear XXXXX:
    Thank you for contacting me regarding citizenship and other eligibility requirements for public office. I appreciate hearing your thoughts and welcome the opportunity to respond.

    As you know, some have raised questions about the eligibility of President-elect Barack Obama (D-Illinois) and Senator John McCain (R-Arizona) for the office of President of the United States. Having confidence in the electoral process and our public officials is critical to maintaining public confidence in our democracy. As such, the voters must be confident in the integrity of the electoral process and our electoral institutions.

    The Constitution and federal law require that, among other things, only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both American citizens) may be President of the United States. In President-elect Obama’s case, some individuals have filed lawsuits in state and federal courts alleging that he has not proven that he is an American citizen, but each of those lawsuits have been dismissed. Furthermore, both the Director of Hawaii’s Department of Health and the state’s Registrar of Vital Statistics recently confirmed that Mr. Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 4, 1961 and, as such, meets the constitutional citizenship requirements for the presidency. If contrary documentation is produced and verified, this matter will necessarily be resolved by the judicial branch of our government under the Constitution.

    Again, thank you for contacting me. Please feel free to contact me in the future on this or other matters of interest to you. For more information about the issues before the U.S. Senate as well as news releases, photos, and other items of interest, please visit my Senate website, http://XXXX.senate.gov.

    Sincerely,

    XXXXXXX
    United States Senator

    MDC:LT

    MY RESPONSE FOLLOWS____________________

    Senator XXXXXXXXXXXX.

    Thank you for your response and I will be forwarding this to all the voters/groups in the State of XXXXXXXXX.

    As for Senator Obama, please be advised of the following points.

    1. The Certificate of Live Birth posted on Obama’s web-site has been proven to be a forgery.
    The State of Hawaii, has responded that it does not release documents electronically, this document
    has the date/timestamp of being edited in Adobe Photoshop CS3. It does NOT catain the official State of Hawaii, Dept
    of Health, embossed seal not required signiture.

    [please see attahed for an actual e-mail from Vital Records State of Hawaii.]

    2. Obama admitted having Dual Citizenship off his owm web-site Fight the smears.

    From Obama own website:
    Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship
    automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”

    Question?
    How could it expire, if he never had it?

    As per the US Constitution, Dual Citizenship is NOT Natural Born Citizenship and disqualifies from the Office of the Presidency.
    “No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President;”

    3. The ONLY witnesses who have come forward to attest to where Obama was born, are his relatives who state he
    was born in Kenya.

    4. The State of Hawaii allowed for foreign births to be registered with the State of Hawaii.
    The long form “vault” copy in Sec 7C allows for foreign births to be registered in the State of Hawaii, as long
    as a parent resided in Hawaii for one (1) year prior to the birth.

    His step sister who was born in Indonesia was also issued a COLB by the State of Hawaii, a known foreign birth, registered in the
    State of Hawaii.

    5. Senator Obama was adopted by a foreigner in a foreign country that did not allow for dual citizenship.

    Obama was adopted by his step father Lolo Soetoro in Indonesia, he was registered as Barry Soetoro in school and listed as an Indonesian citizen.

    What is his legal name.

    Current law suits peding before the Supreme Court of the United States

    The fourth law suit, challenging Obama’s citizenship and Natural Born status has reached the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS). Click links at state abbreviation for details.

    1. Phil Berg — An answer from Barack Obama is due at SCOTUS by December 1st. Berg claims that Obama is not a constitutionally-qualified, natural-born citizen and is ineligible to assume the office of President of the United States.”

    2. Leo Donofrio — The case is scheduled for conference by all 9 SCOTUS judges on December 5th. Donofrios’ suit is against Nina Wells, the New Jersey Secretary of State, claiming that she had not performed her duty to ensure the integrity of the electoral process.

    3. Chris Strunk — Filed with SCOTUS last week. Strunk had filed a Freedom of Information Request to the Department of State seeking information regarding Barack Obama’s mother’s foreign travel records as well as a stay of the Electoral College voting until such time as this paperwork is provided to the Electors.

    4. Cort Wrotnowski — Filed his second case with SCOTUS yesterday. Wrotnowski claims Connecticut Secretary of the State Susan Bysiewicz should not have placed Obama’s name on the ballot without verifying his eligibility for POTUS.

    Respectfully;
    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    I sent this as another e-mail;

    I did fail to mention the following.

    As per your response.

    The Constitution and federal law require that, among other things, only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both American citizens) may be President of the United States.

    Mr Obama’s mother was a US Citizen, however his father was from Kenya and hence under British Citizenship, and passed this and then
    Kenyan citizenship to Obama when Kenya became a free of British rule.

    These facts are not in dispute.


  234. Today, Mark Davis is filling in for Rush and his show is all over the BC issue and the call ins are from all over the country.

    Also today is 12-1, the date that the SP court as a deadline for Obama to answer Berg’s suit. It is now 4pm CST and nothing has happened.

    Since when is it just ok to not show any type of identification in this country? He has gall to go this far as well as the DNC for allowing it. We the American people have the right to know his legal status.

    He definitely is a massive liar and fraud and quite disgusting to ignore these requests—therefore if he does get elected I will never acknowledge him as the Pres of USA–never–he is illegal period.

    Our courts are pathetic and always take the side of the criminal when there is enough money in it for them.


  235. I read an interesting analysis today by that constitutional scholar (forgot his name–Viera?). He asserted that if Obama were to be inaugurated and if he signed, for example, the “freedom of choice act” (which he promised to do), then anyone opposed to its provisions could sue and argue that it’s a bogus (unenforceable?) “law” because Obama is not a legitimate president. Then, in the course of discovery, the person could demand access to any and all documents that would prove his assertion that Obama’s an illegitimate president. Sounds good to me.


  236. JB,

    You are going to have to explain how the quote I provided from Wong Kim Ark shows that Obama is not a “natural born” citizen. The quote provides only two exceptions under common law: if a parent of a child born within the King’s dominion is an ambassador, or if a parent is a hostile occupier. Neither exception applies to Barack Obama.

    I know you don’t want Wong Kim Ark to apply. I’m not confusing anything-the Court discussed the meaning of “natural born” subject under English common law at great length, and came to a very different conclusion than yours. I seriously doubt that the SCOTUS will be willing to risk chaos in order to reverse a 110 year old precedent, even if they did think your analysis of English Common Law is more accurate than that done by the Court in 1898.


  237. Something big is about to happen in Sacramento, and the courts aren’t even involved! Looks like we’ve got some people on the inside seeing this stuff and doing the leg work!!

    Word is, and this is from the folks I used to work with up there, several S of S workers in at least half the states are working together on this. I used to deal with electors and ballot work, I’m driving up there in about an hour to help with the paperwork – it’s happening folks! I’ll be checking on here for any more info – not the one driving so it’ll be easy.

    Regards,

    C.R.


  238. P.S. also, some of the S of S people in other states (well, I’m talking to a handful of people in Sacramento, so maybe there are ones there too) say that in other states, these folks are looking at NOBAMA & McCain. not good, but it does seem to be only a few of those states


  239. *”[[UNITED STATES v. Wong Kim Ark]],” 169 U.S. 649 (1898): “The children of aliens, whose parents have not only not renounced their allegiance to their native country, but are forbidden by its system of government, as well as by its positive laws, from doing so, and are not permitted to acquire another citizenship by the laws of the country into which they come, must necessarily remain themselves subject to the same sovereignty as their parents, and cannot, in the nature of things, be, any more than their parents, completely subject to the jurisdiction of such other country.”


  240. on November 30, 2008 at 11:08 pm Richard
    He still has until 01 Dec to submit his birth certificate to the Supreme Court (Tomorrow).

    Wrong–I am no lawyer but I’ve read much of the lawyer’s opinions–Obama’s lawyers merely have to submit a response to the request–just as they did to the Berg case–with no response on the Berg case, omission seemed to be admission.
    Sadly, if this continues, the Usurper could reach January 20th and them what??
    All who participate, including Justice Roberts could possibly be criminals??
    Pray the SC does the right thing Friday>


  241. And might I add that Obama and his team are exhibiting behavior not acceptable by a 3 year-old, the ” I don’t have to” argument, and behavior the highest court of our land should not accept.


  242. Here’s a letter I received today from my Senator:

    Below is a response to the recent comments I received from you:

    Dear XXXX:

    Thank you for contacting me regarding President-Elect Obama’s citizenship. I appreciate hearing from you and would like to respond to your concerns.

    Like you, I believe that our federal government has the responsibility to make certain that the Constitution of the United States is not compromised. We must fight to uphold our Constitution through our courts and political processes.

    Article II of the Constitution provides that “no Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” The Constitution, however, does not specify how that qualification for office is to be enforced. As you may know, a voter recently raised this issue before a federal court in Pennsylvania. On October 24, 2008, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania released an order in the case of Berg v.Obama.In that case, the plaintiff, Phillip Berg, raised the same issue that your letter raises regarding proof of the President-Elect’s birthplace. Through his lawsuit, Mr. Berg sought to compel President-Elect Obama to produce a certified copy of his birth certificate.

    The District Court dismissed Mr. Berg’s suit and held that the question of Obama’s citizenship is not a matter for a court to decide. The court further noted that voters, not courts, should decide whether a particular presidential candidate is qualified to hold office.

    Presidential candidates are vetted by voters at least twice – first in the primary elections and again in the general election. President-Elect Obama won the Democratic Party’s nomination after one of the most fiercely contested presidential primaries in American history. And, he has now been duly elected by the majority of voters in the United States. Throughout both the primary and general election, concerns about Mr. Obama’s birthplace were raised. The voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications to hold the office of President.

    After he is sworn into office, Mr. Obama will be our nation’s President and I intend to bestow upon him the honor and respect due any man who holds that Office. Yet, I am certain that there will be times when I will disagree and oppose President Obama’s policies. When that happens, you can be assured that I will pursue vigorously what I believe to be in the best interest of Florida and the nation.

    I thank you for sharing your views with me and will keep your concerns in mind. If you have additional questions or comments, please contact me. For more information about issues and activities important to Florida, please sign up for my weekly newsletter at http://martinez.senate.gov.

    Sincerely,

    Mel Martinez
    United States Senator

    Mel Martinez thinks that just because Obama made it through the election that makes him qualified. What poor leadership we have!!


  243. P.P.S. no idea is this related to what NOBMA mentioned about Alabama – though I do know that the reason I’m going up to help is that this is being rushed for Friday.


  244. The South Carolina Democratic party cedrtifies that each candidate meets, or will meet by the time of the election, or as otherwise required by law, the qualifications for the office for which he/she has filed.

    Carol Fowler, Chair of S.C. Election Commission

    In hot water, wouldn’t you think??

    Pelosi only signed the Official Certification of Nomination………..

    but, any lawyer will tell you, when she signed it, it is an ‘implied’ fact or law that she had done her job and certifed, since it says certified the nomination….right??


  245. Here’s my idea for Obama to be able to become President without a huge commotion. He should admit that he doesn’t qualify under the current Constitution, that he was given bad legal advice, etc. and act humble about this mistake. Hah. But Obama, or whatever his name is, should not take the regular Oath of Office and promise to “preserve, protect and defend” the US Constitution, which is all that the Jan 20, 2009, Inauguration does. Doing so, he could be impeached and at the very least will be committing an obvious perjury, as he would be ignoring Article 2 of the Constitution. Also, it would be involving the 3rd branch of our govt (the judiciary–SCOTUS Chief Justice swearing him in) in a serious offense. Instead, he should “assume” the Presidency, to which he was elected, or actually, the Electors, meeting and voting on Dec 15, should ratify his Nov 4 Election and then Obama, working with the current holder of the office, should affirm that he will serve as “President-elect,” which is what all those silly signs and emblems he has up now do. Biden who also gets elected by Electors, could be the one to sign treaties, etc. This plan is of course awful, but it is the type of thing that the media would go along with unquestioningly!


  246. Everyone, the 3 page pdf file from the South Carolina Board of Election Commission to the S.C, Democrat Party ….
    Check out the emphasis underlined!!!!!!!!!!!!!!pg 1

    http://moniquemonicat.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/obama-south-carolina-sec-of-state-respons.pdf


  247. “Mr. Vieira explained although legal standing is difficult to get around in Federal courts, the document could be produced in any criminal cases stemming from legislation passed in the Obama administration.

    “Let’s assume that an Obama administration passes some of these controversial pieces of legislation he has been promising to go for, like the FOCA (Freedom of Choice) Act,” said Mr. Vieira. “I would assume that some of those surely will have some severe civil or criminal penalties attached to them for violation. You are now the criminal defendant under this statute, which was passed by an Obama Congress and signed by President Obama. Your defense is that is not a statute because Mr. Obama is not the president. You now have a right and I have never heard this challenged, to subpoena in a criminal case, anyone who has relevant evidence relating to your defenses. And you can subpoena them duces tecum, meaning ‘you shall bring with you the documents.’ ”

    Such a criminal defense would enable the defendant to subpoena any person to testify in court and any person to bring evidence in their possession to the court.

    Further, records could be subpoenaed directly, in the case of a birth certificate. Once the record could be subpoenaed, the birth certificate could be examined by forensic experts, who would then be able to testify to the document’s veracity as expert witnesses. Any movement by the judges to make a special exception to the president in a criminal case would hurt the legitimacy of that presidential administration.”
    http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=20210273&brd=2737&pag=461&dept_id=638428


  248. I just received my copy of the Martinez response letter. I was ready to post for all to see but see it has already been posted.

    With logic and misrepresentations like this, I really am without words.

    These people have all drank Bo’s “Destroy America” potion!

    I would really like to know what the truth is here. I am beginning to believe that it may be more than I want to handle, however.

    One thing I do know is that things are very bad!


  249. Judah…

    You have made a very good and seemingly accurate argument. I would like to add though, that the Supreme Court has in fact recognized the meaning of “natural-born” citizenship. In the opinion of the Court in Minor v. Happersett (1874), the Court stated:

    “The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.”

    Furthermore, the Wong Kim Ark decision was a hideously flawed intepretation of not only United States custom and law, as established by the Constitution, the Act of 1866, and the 14th Amendment, but the Court ignored previous decisions made in citizenship cases. If anything, the Donofrio case should be heard in order to correct the erroneous precedent established by Wong Kim Ark. The Supreme Court decision in that case was based solely on jus soli – which was a feudal/monarchical concept that had been explicitly rejected when we adopted our republican form of government. (This decision has been used to perpetuate the concept of “birth-right citizenship” that has led to many of our immigration problems today.)


  250. This was just posted on http://www.democratic-disaster.com/index.php the site behind the effort to contact all of the electors before they vote 12/15.
    Well like any good story when there is info to get out you need to verify it first,
    That is what happened last night. Leo Donofrio wanted to check the story before releasing it.
    Well, its been verified and I got permission by Ed Hale, the owner of PRN who moments before talked to Leo.
    On tonight’s show at 6pm CST w/ Scott Oakland, they plan to announce that SCOTUS is going to put a hold on the electors on Friday until all the issues surrounding Barack Obama can be resolved.

    To listen live, go to http://www.plainsradio.com


  251. To M. David

    Unbelievable!!

    So what this (uneducated) Senator is saying is: if a candidate for the highest office in the land is an absolute dimwit but the people elected him whether by fraudulent means or otherwise, that is enough.

    I think all people who want to hold office need to pass a test.
    Seven page test like Obama is giving to applicants, but on the Constitution and our laws.

    The Justices would shake their heads in disbelief if they read Martinez’s reply.


  252. Earl Ofari Hutchinson is an author and political analyst. His forthcoming
    book is How Obama Won (Middle Passage Press, January 2009).

    I downloaded a pdf copy of the WTP-Obama ad from the Chicago Tribune this morning.

    Is it no wonder this biased display comes from an author who loses if Obama is declared ineligible??

    He’d need to change the title, how about ‘How Obama Swindled the Poor Out of Millions in Contributions’


  253. Good read and work. Interesting new points. I’m learning all the time on this. Here is my writings on this Obama citizenship issue:
    http://www.obamacitizenshipfacts.org/

    Also, here is Atty. Leo C. Donofrio’s new critique of the above at his newest blog. The O-Bots keep trying to shut him down. Same conclusion but differing views of the logic to get there:
    http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/

    Mountain Publius Goat


  254. Hi again,

    I did this follow-on, additional posting here for our convenience. Note, there is an update today in the SCOTUS docket for the Donofrio case. Donofrio case of NJ has filed a supplemental brief which was accepted and distributed.

    The Wrotnowski case of CT was denied by Justice Ginsberg on the 26th, but has been resubmitted today to Justice Scalia. That doesn’t show yet on the docket as of this second.

    Here are the links to the current active cases in the SCOTUS docket system links for latest progress entries, as per the docketing system. Note, sometimes in the past some entries are posted here a few days or so late and retro-actively. Donofrio can fill you in on that. Lots of efforts have been made to stop these cases, keep the latest news from the public, imo, by a clerk at SCOTUS. I will not name the clerk here but Donofrio has addressed the matter with SCOTUS:

    Berg of PA (active) case: http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08-570.htm

    Donofrio of NJ case: http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a407.htm

    Wrotnowski of CT case: http://origin.www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/08a469.htm

    Mountain Publius Goat
    http://www.obamacitizenshipfacts.org


  255. I tried finding the 1 page ad in the chicago tribune online and have been unsucessful….Has anyone seen it somewhere?


  256. to nobamanoway 10:59pm – re: Glenn Beck comments last night….

    please see addtl info on Glenn Beck comments from today’s show….(I posted on another thread earlier in error – realized I needed to use this one for anyone to read it…)

    …just curious, anyone listening to Glenn Beck today?….chilling msg – his take on where we are in history – (something my friends here are well aware of – and then some…)…….basically he is saying alarm bells are going off for him …. he thinks “we (US) are sitting on a powder keg”…. – he cited Drudge today – “Pentagon deploying 20K troops in America for domestic security” is just the start of the chgs coming our way…he is trying to wake the sleeping masses to be alert….he also said, IHO – “this is not a DEM or REP thing – this is not because of BO” – he thinks it’s bigger than that…and he like us, said “and the MSM is clueless to report or comprehend” where we are….

    ,,,,and,,,,if course, we now have Sen Clinton named as Sec of State….guess it’s official,,,,as you know, I usually say, pray, pray, pray, I think I will now add….”prepare, prepare, prepare”,,,,,”pray for the best & prepare for something else,,,”


  257. on December 1, 2008 at 7:52 pm | Reply FirstAmendment

    Judah, sir….you are a hero in my eyes. Apparently, I quoted you (WAY upthread) and the offensive post was addressed “to whomever wrote”.

    There is no way…none…anyone could claim you are on Obama’s team. Ludicrous, indeed.

    Again, thank you and thanks to TD.

    The problem with long threads is it extrememly time consuming to go back and check posts when necessary.


  258. Song, that was a very interesting article you posted. http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=20210273

    The fallout possibilities:

    “Let’s assume that an Obama administration passes some of these controversial pieces of legislation he has been promising to go for, like the FOCA (Freedom of Choice) Act,” said Mr. Vieira. “I would assume that some of those surely will have some severe civil or criminal penalties attached to them for violation. You are now the criminal defendant under this statute, which was passed by an Obama Congress and signed by President Obama. Your defense is that is not a statute because Mr. Obama is not the president. You now have a right and I have never heard this challenged, to subpoena in a criminal case, anyone who has relevant evidence relating to your defenses. And you can subpoena them duces tecum, meaning ‘you shall bring with you the documents.’ ”

    “Such a criminal defense would enable the defendant to subpoena any person to testify in court and any person to bring evidence in their possession to the court. ”

    So only a matter of weeks into Obama’s administration and someone challenges a bill he signed into law. The courts would have a difficult time claiming that this person did not have standing. Man, what a turd storm that would be.


  259. Leo on Plains Radio live at 7pm ET 12/01/08.

    http://plainsradio.com

    Major news update on Leo’s new blog:

    http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/


  260. Kay

    You have to register