TD Note: This story was originally published on Aug. 13, 2008 as a *breaking* report. It is re-posted now due to its relevance in light of the lawsuit pending in federal court, for which defendants have now been served. The story has been edited slightly to reflect updated translations and other current information. The original comments are attached.
Some additional stories from this blog, now in archive, will also be made available soon due to reader requests.
We just received this photo of a school registration form, courtesy of reader “curious,” taken by Tatan Syuflana, an Indonesian AP reporter and photographer.
The AP caption reads: “This registration document, made available on Jan. 24, 2007, by the Fransiskus Assisi school in Jakarta, Indonesia, shows the registration of Barack Obama under the name Barry Soetoro into the Catholic school made by his step-father, Lolo Soetoro. The document lists Barry Soetoro as a Indonesian citizen, born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, and shows his Muslim step-father listed the boy’s religion as Islam. (AP Photo/ Tatan Syuflana)” [NOTE: the AP did verify the photo]
Thanks to reader Matthew at The Change and Experience blog for the translation:
What This Documentation Means
This AP photo is compelling evidence of the following assertions, which have been set forth on this blog:
1. Barack Obama had Indonesian citizenship
2. Barack Obama had the legal name Barry Soetoro
3. Barack Obama was a Muslim, despite his “fight the smears” claim that he never has been. (see story that we posted on this topic).
When was Barack Obama going to tell the electorate about his Indonesian identity and citizenship?
What is the current status of his Indonesian citizenship?
Did Barack Obama travel to Pakistan in 1981 on an Indonesian passport?
Does his birth certificate say Barry Soetoro?
Did he ever legally change his name from Soetoro to Obama?
Is the correct name on the ballot?
SEE these other stories for reference (these may not all be currently available; we are working on re-releasing them):
Obama: Myth v. Reality, Part I.
Is His Legal Name Obama or Soetoro?
Obama: The Forged COLB and a New Mystery
Obama: A Disaster Waiting to Happen
The Paper Trail: Obama’s Indonesian Background
TD- if you’ve not been here- this is a must read blog:
The “An American Expat in Southeast Asia” blog reports that Obama’s Indonesian schooling began when he was entered into the Roman Catholic, Franciscus Assisi Primary School, in Jakarta, Indonesia, on January 1, 1968 and sat in class 1B.
He was registered under the name of Barry Soetoro, serial number 203. School documents list Barry Soetoro as an Indonesian citizen and his religion was listed as Islam.
http://laotze.blogspot.com/2007/01/tracking-down-obama-in-indonesia-part-3.html
CHECKMATE…..
The game is over and the big O lost. This should be enough proof for any legal action necessary to remove “the chosen one’s” name from ALL state ballots. Looks like fraud to me…..
I would also think the state board of attorneys would have some serious questions to ask of him, and perhaps the Federal elections commission?
Maybe even Mr Fitzpatrick, the Federal District Attorney who put Rezko away will be interested in Mr obama now.
Who knows, maybe all the “bones” will come out of the closet.
Blockbuster information, and very nice timing! Great work Texas Darlin, we love you!!!
This could be HUGE! It was mentioned on another blog that Corsi referenced this also….. and remember Obama’s “Fight the Smears” site says he was never a muslim. This has to get published!
IT’S ABOUT TIME THAT IT IS COMING OUT,
AND PUT HIM TO SLEEP . HE SHOULD BE OUT OF POLITICS.
WOOT there it is!!
OMG those frakkin lying media whores!!!!
they had this since 2007 and are calling everyone a conspiracy theorist and xenophobic racist for claiming he was EDUCATED as a MUSLIM in his indonesian school under Soetero!!!
good golly Miss Molly!
yay TXDarlin yay!!!
I feel a song comin on..
IIIII’m hooked on a feelin’
im high on believin
we will have Hillareeeeeee
HASSELHOFF SRYLE FOR OBAMAFANZ IN GERMANY!!
WOOT!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJQVlVHsFF8
Hooked on a feelin!!
Ah, actually… so with the BC that the republicans have with his name being Barry Soetoro… and with the a passport… bingo!
This is an excellent find!
Photo here:
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0eON7ni16MaCr/Soetoro
more of the sister here:
http://www.daylife.com/search/photos/all/1?q=Soetoro
regarding the above post, I can add:
source:
http://foreignprophecies.blogspot.com/2008/01/retracing-barack-obamas-footsteps-in.html
Hmm…
So is this the 2nd Indonesian school BHO attended, or the one we’ve mostly heard about before?
Imo, if this photo is authentic (I assume it is) this settles the issue of whether or not BHO ever had dual citizenship or was Muslim – he DID and WAS!
tex – 3 links in new post / see moderation
great work folks!
WOW WOW WOW. I mean, just WOW!!
So…how many more months (or years) before the media decides to report this? I can hardly wait for the creative spin on this one. What a hoot!
NOTE ON COMMENTS
I am getting hundreds and can’t catch them all, some go into spam for various reasons.
Please, people, don’t take it personally.
Great work TD, and everyone who helped
I love it. I love it. I can’t get enough of it.
O-Bomb-Out is going down. This is going to make the 1968 DNC in Chicago look like a picnic.
Great work, TD!
Good work TD. Now all we have to do is get the DNC credentials committee and the MSM to do something about it. Add this to the Stories about the Odinga-Obama relationship and the Rezko-Auchi ties…it would have finished anyone else off months ago. One can only hope it will bring the DNC to its senses before it is too late.
This just begs the question “Exactly how accurate is Indonesian public school paperwork…from the 70s?”
You will all be so disappointed when the media simply doesn’t carry the story.
I remember reading this in an April WND article:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60559
“… After attending the Assisi Primary School, Obama was enrolled – also as a Muslim, according to documents – in the Besuki Primary School, a public school in Jakarta.
…..
In a free-ranging interview with the New York Times, Obama described the Muslim call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”
The Times’ Nicholos Kristof wrote Obama recited, “with a first-class [Arabic] accent,” the opening lines of the Muslim call to prayer.
In the same article WND quoted this blog:
http://laotze.blogspot.com/2007/01/tracking-down-obama-in-indonesia-part-2.html
… All Indonesian students are required to study religion at school and a young ‘Barry Soetoro’ being a Muslim would have been required to study Islam daily in school. He would have been taught to read and write Arabic, to recite his prayers properly, to read and recite from the Quran and to study the laws of Islam.”
Absolutely brilliant TD. If I wasn`t happily married………
dekan
The “media” are us.
I think this disqualifies him to recieve security clearance. But I tried to find a law about it and running for president. Apparently it doesn’t matter unless he was naturalized in India. I don’t how you become naturalized in two countries but that is what I found.
This could be used though to pursuade people not to trust him, but I don’t think its an issue with him running for president.
Even if he got fined and name taken off the ballot, he would quickly reapply in enough time to get back on it.
Unfortunately, with the way the media takes months to pick up issues, this most likely won’t come out untill after the convention. By then it will be too late.
dekan, they better carry it or all hell is going to break out at the convention. People are tired of this not coming out and we can hold the media responsible.
According to the Islamic faith, if you are a Muslim and turn away from your faith, outwardly denouncing it, you are an apostate. Also in the Islam religion, the result of apostasy is death. Obama has stated that he has been a practicing Christian for 20 years. He has outwardly denied ever being Muslim. If he was ever truly Muslim by faith, I doubt that he would put his life and his children’s life in danger by openly admitting he is now a Christian. Hope this helps.
TD, you have made my night!!! You have made my week!!! Hell, you have made my next 8 years!!!!!
Blessings upon you and yours, I am estatic and have just had a burst of energy right before I was about to crash from exhaustion!
THIS is journalism folks. Hats off to TexasDarlin!!! There is, indeed, a yellow rose in Texas tonight!
As much as I’d love to believe this, I can tell you that I was registered in school through 2nd grade as my mother’s maiden name but it was never my legal name. Just made it easier for my mom not to have to answer questions – in the 70s. Not sure it has ever been noted on any other document that I ever went by that name. For a matter of fact, I didn’t even think about it until now and it’s 30 years later.
Also, the religion aspect regarding the school has been “addressed” – that it was his parent’s religion so that is how they registered him. BUT he *never* embraced any religion until he went to Chicago and well, you know the rest of that one….
While the DNC and MSM will ignore it, we know the Republicans won’t. Of course, it’ll be too late for HRC at that point.
Sooooooooo appreciate your great work TD! Keep up the good work!
awesome, game-changing news.
and still, I cry in despair. Because this amazing news, with clear evidence, will go no where, as the MSM will mask it, cover it up, and do nothing, simply because they fear Obama like lost little puppies. Where did all the good journlists go? How did we, as Americans, freedom of speech, have surrendered our media to acting like puppets? Shame, shame, shame.
the media will do nothing, absolutely nothing.
But what about the law? Can we trust our lawmakers to do something, when in fact there is tons of evidence that Obama broke the law?
They will answer to God, someday…
On his IL Attorney Registration first line says- Full Licensed Name: Barack Hussein Obama.
His *birth cert* says: Barack Hussein Obama II
What happened to the Jr or Obama the II?
Come on reporters. Ask him when he changed his name from that too to leave off the II as shown on his official website.
Maybe someone with good computer skills could post this story at the “Readers articles” at realclearpolitics so it could get more views. They had a post showing the picture of the school form, nothing else was with the pic.
I added some enhanced images of the original image.
http://blog.changeandexperience.com/2008/08/barack-obamas-indonesian-registration.html
dekan- read the explanation of the school paperwork- it was a PRIVATE school..not public sxhool. 30 plus years ago records didn’t look the way they do now- no computers and not always typewriters.
This is wonderful news. What is the plan of action?
TD you make pit bulls look weak!!!
LOVE YOU!!!
[...] is a proported Associated Press photo posted by the blog Texas Darlin which shows Obama registered for a Catholic school under the name Barry Soetoro. The document lists [...]
Will the Obamatrons try to prove this is a fake? I sure hope this is the smoking gun, but why didn’t this get some play a long time ago if it’s been out there since last year? Why didn’t the Clintons really make a big deal about it? I so want this to be the thing that collapses OB’s fake kingdom around his arrogant head. Can it be proven real and accurate? I hope so because time is of the essence here. Denver is getting mighty close. Thanks TD for the good work. Now let’s get it out to the masses.
I live in Sherman Texas about 50 miles north of Dallas. I was wondering would there be any marches or rallies in Dallas on Aug. 25,26 or 27th???
I cannot find this image on the AP website. Could you provide a link?
I cannot wait to get back to read EVERYTHING here. But first things first!
You win, TexasMyDarlin. !!! Yay!!!
Congratulations. I am so glad that I knew you when…
OMG! WOMAN YOU ARE RELENTLESS. Let me never tell you lies!
MOST EXCELLENT…I’m going to be emailing your link to everyone!
Sorry TD, I kinda linked to your site and went everywhere I could think of to tell people about it, so you’ll get a LOT of hits tonight. I’m sorry if it overloads or shuts you down, but this story is just TOO DAMN GOOD!!!!!
If the site locks up, I take the blame and I apologize before hand.
WASHINGTON (AFP) — A book by a conservative author that claims to dish the dirt on Democrat Barack Obama is set to hit the top of the New York Times bestseller lists this weekend, the newspaper said Wednesday.
“The Obama Nation” is by Jerome Corsi, who made his name by co-authoring “Unfit for Command,” which maligned 2004 Democratic nominee John Kerry’s Vietnam War record and contributed to his defeat by President George W. Bush.
The new book’s publisher, Threshold Editions, said it examined “why the extreme leftism of an Obama presidency would leave the United States weakened, diminished and divided, why Obama must be defeated — and how he can be.”
It queries whether Obama ever abandoned his youthful dalliance with soft drugs, claims he has “extensive connections with ISLAM and radical politics,” and owes his rise to national prominence to corrupt Chicago politics.
They better start acquiring some more warehouses in Denver, I think.
You are doing this and we’re watching cable with one eye.
Maya looks submissive and pliable. And intense.
I thought this information has been out there for more than a year? What is new here? Finding the actual form with the word Muslim listed?
The AP said it was made available in 1/2007 by the school, but no one has made an issue of it until now?
Help me. What am I missing?
To TEXASDARLIN:
I was looking at the school registration form picture taken by Tatan posted above.
Looked carefully THROUGH TO OTHER SIDE of the sheet. There are two things I noticed,
1. TWO WORDS:
ANGKA NILAI, which translates into
something like SCORES or (school) GRADES. My Indonesian friend gave me the translation.
2. If you look carefully, again on the other side of the sheet, you can see WORDS WRITTEN VERTICALLY FROM THE TOP DOWN,
just like a list of subjects a student would be graded on (such as language, math, religion, etc.).
I thought this was interesting.
I wonder if POLARIK could bring up
better images of the text or words from the other side of the sheet for us to read.
Thanks.
Remember when Hillary did a 60 Minutes interview and she said, well we don’t know if he was ever a Muslim or something like that and the media crucified her for that.
Well, Hillary was right all along, she must have known about this but kept her mouth shut for political reasons.
Rise Hillary Rise!!!
OK lets get the corrupt dude out of the election process, let him deal with this in the courts.
lets get Hillary in there and have a good election process.
FYI, I DO NOT agree with Hillarys positions as I am a Republican. BUT!!!!!!
I WILL for sure sleep alot better, knowing (assuming she wins) that we have a US Citizen as the President, and She is a fighter and SHE WOULD DEFEND this nation and not turn it into some socialist party / Muslim / Communist / whatever the flavor of the day is.
And if a Call comes at 3AM I am sure she could handle it as McCain could. Just like we seen with Russia, attacking Georiga South of them. I am sure we will see alot worse, sad to say. And anyone that thinks Israel Will Not attack IRAN within the Next 4 years or vice versa, you Out of touch and lack knowledge, (ignornat).
Good Job Texas Darlin site!
Howdy TexasDarling from Southeast Asia
TD
I feel like Alice in Wonderland. I just got up from my chair in the living room where I listened to Anderson 360 do a “this is why Corsi’s book, Obama Nation, is full of lies” segment and as part of that there was a clip of Obama saying he was not a Muslim and had never been a Muslim. Then I log on and see this! It reminds me of an old game my father used to play with me as a child. I would ask him for a bite of his icecream cone that he was holding in his hand and with a dead serious look on his face he would say, “Ice cream? What ice cream? I don’t have any icecream. I just can’t believe Obama is still getting away with this.
Wow!!! This is incredible!!!
My God – it’s less than 2 weeks away from the convention and NO ONE – NO ONE will say anything negative about this guy, except maybe Sean Hannity!!!
I mean CNN, MSNBC, they only report warm and fuzzies on him.
Between Edwards affair and who’s speaking on what night at BHO’s coronation – we simply cannot get this OUT into the mainstream media.
WHY?
Does everyone just want him to get the nomination and wait until October?
I can see it now…Anderson Cooper saying “why didn’t the media investigate or know about this?”
Great news TD! Thanks so much for all your hard work……
http://nativeamericansagainstobama.wordpress.com/
We just have to keep it going. We must remain committed to getting information on BO and telling people about it.
If the Dem leadership continues to push Obamaling as the nominee — then the party deserve to lose and lose BIG.
Also it appears that Obama lied on his Illinois bar records.
There are a whole lot of records missing on Obama.
I don’t care about Obama’s religion — the point is that he has lied — and if he is willing to lie about insignificant matters what else has he lied about??
Good work Texas Darlin — you are a true patriot.
TD:
simply, BRAVA!
Excellent work, TD!
18 Months? Why have we not seen this? This is great TD!!
The way that I see it is that the “in the tank” media will not report it because they like the Fool-Aid kegger parties and the right wing won’t report it because they are not ready to play their hand yet.
This has to break before the convention!!
There are some good questions here.
So where do you go from here?
Peaceful civil disobedience with signs in front of MSM cameras at high profile locations….do I need to say more…?
i still believe it’s important to pull together with PUMA people and do your own poll. the same corporate media that is in the tank for BO are doing the polls, for the most part. the pollsters who aren’t part of the corpmedia are playing the same game anyway. any one of a dozen negatives known about BO would be enough to turn off the voting public, so there’s no way he is still up there with mccain. NO WAY.
Obviously this needs to be forwarded to every secretary of state with a request to investigate Mr. Soetoro’s eligibility to be in the ballot, the Drudge Report, Fox News, ABC News, the Republican National Committee and the DNC as well. The more people know about it, the more difficult it will be for Howard Dean and other puppets of Mr. Soetoro to proceed with the fake coronation in Denver.
great job. hopefully the national enquirer will jump on this. its not like there are any other investigative journalists around.
I remember seeing a school document with the same info…I think it was from the second school he went to. This was over a year ago, I never could find the image again. Scrubbed, no doubt.
Why the hell are you doing things like this? Is your plan to import four more years of Bush antifeminism?
“Hey, that’ll show those anti-feminist Obama Democrats! Get an even MORE anti-feminist President into offi… uh… wait, huh?”
Fran,
“I cannot find this image on the AP website. Could you provide a link?”
Click on the link Tatan Syuflana.
The LMSM has previously reported on the existence of this document. To my knowledge, the photo was never used to accompany such stories. The Chicago Tribune claimed the registration form was rife with errors, but didn’t substantiate a factual basis for this conclusion. This is important to realize, because now it would look like old news to any reporters who remember the stories from January and March 2007 that attempted to debunk the contents of the document.
And yes, it should be forwarded to the National Enquirer as well. It will be very hard to ignore if the document is on the front page of a tabloid next to every supermarket counter in the country.
To TexasDarlin,
Could you please cite the Associated Press document or at least give us the name of the originating author please and date of publication… what newspaper was it published at, etc.
Enquiring minds want to know!!!
Doesn’t the Koran (Muslim religious Bible type book) state something about utilizing deceit to overcome the infidels? Then, they apply a surprise attack after perhaps waiting years to get the chance to crush the non-Muslim enemy?
??????????
I can see Obama doing this.
Cosmeta,
The AP didn’t write the story to my knowledge. We’re writing it now.
The photo, though, is by an AP photographer/reporter, and the link is in her name. I’ll try to edit to make that clearer.
Thanks.
Exciting! Wonderful! I want to read this in the NY Times now! I know we’re gonna see it in John McCain’s ads.
Fantastic job, TD!
Texas Darlin, I hope you will be able to get to my post at 1:13am. I really would like to know the answer.
BTW, I am a Texas Girl! I read your posts over on Gretawire and followed the link. Thank you for posting all this info. I pray our counrty will wake up and see the danger we are in w/ BO.
The answer to “where has this story been for the last 18 months?” is that the story has been out there, Obama stated that the record is “full of errors,” and the story basically ended right there.
I would really *love* to see a legal challenge to his eligibility to be POTUS, and have a good attorney take Obama’s deposition. I’d like for him to answer some very basic questions under oath–
“Are you now, or have you ever been a citizen of Indonesia?”
“Have you ever held a passport issued by Indonesia or any other country besides the USA?”
“Were you a Muslim?”
“What is your legal name?”
“Were you legally adopted by Lolo Soetoro, or by any other person(s)?”
That would nicely box him into a corner if he lies about any of those.
Well… here’s the thing… I am currently in email communication with a WELL KNOW AUTHOR currently investigating BHO, and I/we really really really need authenticated specifics.
Please email me specific info that can be verified, Pulllese…
Kathleen
Soetoro’s supporters and lackeys in the MSM may try to debunk it, but it will make their job much harder if the photo of the school registration is actually seen by the public, which is why it needs to be widely distributed to as many outlets as possible. I suspect Tatan Syuflana’s site is now being flooded by Soetoro’s Internet goons trying to hack into it.
The damning part is not the religion; its the citizenship: Indonesian.
We’ll see how this plays out, but the photo of the registration form looks a tad bit more authentic than the fight-the-smears Birth Certificate
Obama should ‘fess up as to whether he was legally adopted by Lolo Soetoro, whether he became an Indonesian citizen, and whether he legally changed his name back to Obama if he was legally adopted.
Also, Kenya was a British colony when he was born so his father was a British subject, meaning he was born with American and British citizenship.
To complicate it more, he has said that his father told him he got him Kenyan citizenship when he was two years old. He was born in 1961, Kenya became independent in 1963.
The Muslim question is worrisome because he was born Muslim, because his father was Muslim he was automatically Muslim.
Becoming Christian made him an apostate. A lot of Muslims will be unhappy if we have an apostate Muslim in the White House, since the Islamic punishment for apostasy is death, usually by beheading. His Muslim background, whether he ever practiced it on his own, is a problem.
He received some training in Islam and attended some services, in addition to being born Muslim.
Radical Muslims would not see the election of a former Muslim as a good thing showing how tolerant Americans are. They would more likely see it as another insult inflicted on their faith, that we would dare elect a Muslim apostate, and perhaps as a sign of our stupidity. That’s according to Muslim writers, that this would be resented.
There are so many reasons this man should not be president and there’s no sign that the delegates or superdelegates know half the things they should know about him.
Oh, maybe THAT”s why the Muslim “smears” continue – because they are true!
This needs to be a very simple mailed flyer. It’s completely self-contained and needs very little annotation. A PAC dedicated to assuring the truth is finally revealed should use their money for this.
It would force MSM coverage
The reason why you need to be a Natural Citizen to be POTUS is because the founding fathers did not want anyone with loyality to two Countries so does this exclude folks with duel citizenship. I would think it does.
Good job TD
As Judah Benjamin said, the fact that Soetoro tried to cover up his past makes him unfit to be POTUS, for he has proven himself to be completely untrustworthy. At this rate of revelations, he’s going to surpass Richard Nixon as being synonymous with being a crook.
[...] August 13, 2008 Barry Soetoro: Indonesian Citizen, Muslim Religion Posted by PJ under precious | Tags: lies, obama, soetoro | http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/breaking-photo-documents-barry-soetoro-indonesian/#comme... [...]
[...] school registration document for Barry Soetoro a.k.a Barack Obama. I definitely recommend checking out her article. The photo caption says: This registration document, made available on Jan. 24, 2007, [...]
As for your article, Obama became an Indonesian Citizen in 1966-67 when he was adopted by his step father and at that time Indonesia was not recognizing dual citizenship. When the other country does not recognize dual citizenship, did not that mean Obama was and is no longer an US Citizen unless he is naturalized again when he came to USA? Did he ever again opt for US Citizenship by applying for US Citizenship? If not is he an Indonesian citizen only until 2007 when Indonesia accepted dual citizenship.
If this argument is correct, I am not a lawyer, does not that mean he is not eligible to be POTUS.
I hope some constitutional lawyer weighs in.
Can we sue DNC for imposing on us an ineligible candidate for POTUS?
Thank You. I put your post on my blog. We need to see his Illinois Bar Application. What other names have you used is most likely part of that also. Great Work. Zach
He knew this would come out eventually. Just not before the Democrat’s Convention. That is the reason for “I am a citizen of the world” statement. It may fly across Europe and the Middle East as a good thing , but not in the USA and not in the Oval Office. If this turns out to be authentic, even if he gets the nomination, there is no way on Earth that he will get elected. He wouldn’t anyway, but this seals the deal.
I hope some constitutional lawyer weighs in.
Be that lawyer. Nay wait fer a one, but be such yerself, fer that is yer duty, citizen.
I updated the original blog post.
http://blog.changeandexperience.com/2008/08/barack-obamas-indonesian-registration.html
I included some minor edits (such as his address at the time) and a couple of images of a basic outline of what information it contains.
Indonesia not recognizing a dual citizenship just means they don’t recognize it. It doesn’t negate a valid US citizenship. The eligibility issue is over whether or not one is disqualified by having ever held another citizenship (assuming he is US born).
Everyone should click on the website of the poster here ‘Lao’, who is evidently posting from Southeast Asia and is very familiar with Indonesia. She has a great website with some interesting posts about Obama and the coverup over his Muslim background.
Be sure to read her opinion on the CNN coverup and the venerable Sam Feist, CNN’s Political Director and Senior Executive Producer of Political Programming.
I’m not sure I can post her website, but scroll up to her post and click on her name and it will come up.
A really good read. Between Lao and Texas Darlin’, Obama better run faster and might need more help than Sam Feist.
I don’t know if this has been previously pointed out, but an article about his former school teacher Israella Darmawan briefly describes the page shown in the photo. http://tinyurl.com/6yclty
In it, she pulls out her school register from 1968 and turns to the page showing the registration number 203 and Barry Soetoro’s name on it written in large handwriting. I believe the photo above is taken from that very same school register.
The reason why you need to be a Natural Citizen to be POTUS is because the founding fathers did not want anyone with loyality to two Countries so does this exclude folks with duel citizenship. I would think it does.
Good job TD
Some historians called it the “anti-Alexander Hamilton clause.” Hamilton was British-born (Bermuda) and favored a very strong central government. His ambitions were suspect.
If this argument is correct, I am not a lawyer, does not that mean he is not eligible to be POTUS.
If Obama can prove he was born in the U.S., then I doubt any court would rule him ineligible on the basis of having dropped his citizenship for a time, and then re-claiming it.
I believe the truly damaging information is not going to be legal in nature (i.e. constitutionally ineligible), but will be related to loyalty.
I think the GOP probably has uncovered info regarding his 1981 trip to Pakistan, and other such stuf that will doom Obama.
And there’s no way the GOP will reveal this prior to the convention. The GOP wants the Dems to nominate whichever candidate looks weakest.
That’s probably Obama.
Hate to break the news to you , but it’s fake. No info caption from AP and no where to be found on AP photo site. Another problem is it states it was available Jan 24,2007 and no one has seen it or the article it was written for.
Come on people
Tony Stark:
Here is the article you mentioned:
http://old.thejakartapost.com/weekender/6reporter.asp
“Israella Darmawan is every inch a teacher, from her shiny cap of black hair to her sensible shoes. In an office at the Fransiskus Assisi School, she shows me an old register with an entry for Barry Soetoro, as Barack Obama was know then. Bu Is taught Obama in the first grade. She admits she doesn’t remember all her students well, but Barry … well, he stood out.
“He really was different from the others. He was tall and heavy, black skin, curly hair.”
I got the reference from a RCP ReaderArticle which was on sometime last week.
Here’s what I’ve been able to translate from the headings on this image:
ORANG
people
NAMA INA
name of country code
NAMA MURID
Name of Pupil
ALAMAT MURID
Address of Pupil
NAMA ORANG INA
Name of person of country
WARGA NEGARA
Citizen of State
AGAMA
Religion
TANGGAL
date of
ANGKA
number
NILAI
value
IBU
Mother
(Curiosities)
No signature or name of Mother
Odd date 4-0-68
Can’t define heading 1-1-68
Matthew,
Thank you for the translations.
Also, the verification you provide at your site is appreciated.
http://blog.changeandexperience.com/
GREAT WORK!!! But the question is: What are you/we going to do with this information? I think the National Enquirer will be happy to publish it. It’s got to get out there. NO CHANCE CNN or MSNBC (Maybe Lou Dobbs) will be interested. THANK YOU!!!!!
Tatan Syuflana is a legit AP photographer. A simple Google search of her name shows many reports with photos by this person for the AP, specifically that region of the world, meaning that this photographer has traveled to Jakarta.
If you do a Google image search of “Tatan Syuflana“, you get at least 60 photos listed as AP Photos.
[...] Front Sheet Posted on August 14, 2008 by dianej Again, I urge my readers to head over to texasdarlin.worpress.com to read their latest story regarding Barry Soetoro and his religion. Have a look/see you [...]
original article for the photo was written by Nedra Pickler for AP and published on the same day – jan 24 2007. They mention the school records displayed here.
We’re already starting to see the outlines of the counterattack by Soetoro’s followers which boils down to claiming that either 1) the document is fake on the basis of it not appearing in any previous article by AP and 2) it’s real but Soetoro’s info was incorrectrly entered.
It seems like it should be possible to contact the AP or the photographer to get a full resolution copy of the image. Also, if you contact the photographer, there may be additional images from the same photo shoot.
This document appears genuine. It seems to be a report card: on the front, information on the student; on the back, results.
A report card for grade 1, judging from the words on the back, at the top.
This has been raised by other readers.
There is no reason to give no credence to the information contained on this report card.
There might be other documents in Indonesia, which are available to others.
If Obama was an Indonesian at that time – and one has to know the Indonesian law at that time, which might be significantly different from the current law – he might still be one, depending once again about the Indonesian law. This is a matter for an Indonesian lawyer or court.
This is the link to the Nedra Pickler’s AP article for which the photograph was taken
Title: “Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School”.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012400371_pf.html
“Gibbs said he wasn’t sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim.”
It’s easy enough to verify that it’s not a fake. Go back to the school and check further documents. The second school should also have documentation.
This is NOT new news. I reference an LA Times article written March 16, 2007 by Paul Watson, from which he states:
“His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama’s grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended.”
So, your information HAS been in the MSM, you’re just trying to spin it up to incite a few more GOP killers; I guess you think that if you murder all of the liberals, McCain might win?
Here is the link:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/bal-te.obama16mar16,1,7181735,full.story?cset=true&ctrack=3&coll=la-headlines-nation
First paragraph has been revised to link to original AP story.
The difference is that the Jan. 07 story did NOT include this photo.
It’s not the crime, it’s the cover-up.
BO is the classic psychopath. He’s charming, glib, a good and frequent liar, denies when caught in a lie, unremorseful.
A bit off topic, but I hope everyone will take the time to listen to these three videos — thankfully someone intelligent enough to explain this is doing so, and it will make you furious to see how Hillary has been treated by her own Party.
Democratic Process O8
Host Leslie Stevens
Program Sponsored
by
The Educational Foundation for the Integrity
of the Democratic Process
Asheville, North Carolina
Connect-the-Dots Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lPCunsrI1Q
Connect-the-Dots Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Khsg8iKjU
Connect-the-Dots Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXpz8AJk8TM
………………………………………….
ACTION ITEM….RED ALERT TO ALL BLOGGERS!
PLEASE POST THE ABOVE…
WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO STEP FORWARD AND CLEAR THE MESS UP, SO THAT WE COULD UNDERSTAND THIS AND NOW SOME ACADEMICS HAVE.
PLEASE POST IT SEND IT TO YOUR FAMILY VIA E-MAIL AND WRITE ABOUT IT!
NOT ALL ACADEMIC MINDS ARE ASLEEP!
http://www.lynettelong.com/
As always, it’s the cover-up that will get you. Let the depositions begin. If there are issues of debarment looming, as a result of misstatements on ABA forms, the implications will be very serious, indeed.
Calling Mr. Fitzgerald . . . .
what Barry will say iis that the document lists his place of birth as Honolulu. anchor baby.
Check out my website
http://barrysoetoro.us
And one more thin. On line three (3), you transcribed (and failed to translate) the word “Bangsa,” which means, variously “people, race, family” and potentially even “nation,” depending on the context.
Also, line (3)b is “Keturunan Asing,” which means “foreign born,” and line (3)c is “Suku Bangsa, “meaning “ethnically distinct groups.”
If you want to lie, at least do it correctly.
That is, one more “thing.”
St. Ignatius said, and I think quite rightly, “Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man.”
Age is the traditional ‘age of reason.’
We have many proverbs related to this insight, e.g., ‘As the twig is bent, so grows the tree, etc.”
And we have much research into the psychology of childhood to consider, most of it validating the proverbial wisdom.
The senator may say he was not a muslim, but given that the young duck seemed to walk, quack, and live as one in a muslim country, certainly he was a ‘muslim’ of some kind. (It all depends on the meaning of ‘is’ as a famous person once noted.)
Americans are not gonig to like this Indonesian version of something that reminds them of ‘The Manchurian Candidate.’
The photo was taken on January 24, 2007, according to the photographer.
The AP caption reads: “This registration document, made available on Jan. 24, 2007, by the Fransiskus Assisi school in Jakarta, Indonesia, shows the registration of Barack Obama under the name Barry Soetoro into the Catholic school made by his step-father, Lolo Soetoro. The document lists Barry Soetoro as a Indonesian citizen, born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, and shows his Muslim step-father listed the boy’s religion as Islam. (AP Photo/ Tatan Syuflana)”
The same day Washington Post published an article on this, but without the photo:
Obama debunks claim about Muslim school (January 24, 2007)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012400371_pf.html
A picture would have been worth 10,000 words.
TD, I don’t know if you missed Tony Stark’s comment up thread:
BA — Right, see revision in first paragraph.
Grlpatriot, yes, saw that. Thank you
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Gibbs, BO’s spokesperson, claimed in the story that BO studied catechism at the Catholic school. Is that likely?
At the time, would the Indonesian government have allowed a state-sanctioned “Catholic” school to teach Catholic tenets to Muslim children? Disinformation.
This story was a “distraction” (that word again) from the real issue.
Reporters flocked there to “disprove” the rumour that BO attended a “madrassa”. As it turned out, neither school was technically a madrassa.
(Ask Alice Palmer all about how BO pays attention to technicalities.)
However, the issue for most people wasn’t whether it was a madrassa or not but whether he was dissembling about ever having been Muslim.
It’s typical of the MSM to focus on one aspect of a “rumour” about their preferred candidate and “disprove” or defang it by going off on some tangent or another. Then they trumpet the “news” that the person raising the issue is wrong, evil, a bigot, whatever.
These reporters breezed right past the question of his nationality, religion, and surname.
Pamela Geller at Atlas Shrugs said at the time, “Obama’s school documents, though, wrongly list him as being Indonesian.”
Wrongly? Maybe not.
As for the photo being fake. It looks real to me, especially how the back side reveals that cross-hatched pattern that looks so much like a report card. (Great catch, Amazonia.)
One can also see the curve of the page, where it’s bound, all of which is consistent with what the teacher talked about and what the reporter recorded her saying. I hate to admit that I’m old enough to remember books that look just like that.
Furthermore, the photo was online as of 12/29/07, and probably before then. A Google search with a date option of “past year” will turn it up. (That is, until somebody scrubs it.)
You know, I was thinking that there may never have been a legal name change to Soetoro in the first place. I went to school with a boy who was registered under his adopted name, but his birth certificate was never changed.
He started using his birth name again in middle school — didn’t have to legally change it at all.
Look at the handwriting on document.
During the early 1960’s fountain pens were still used. Ball point pens were too expensive for the general public especially overseas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_pen
Breaking at 11:09am this morning:
ABC News’ Kate Snow reports: A deal has been brokered between Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton that will allow Clinton’s name to be placed in nomination at next week’s Democratic nominating convention, sources close to the Clinton camp told ABC News.
“Both sides agree that it is in the best interest of party unity and making sure that everyone’s voice and vote is honored to make sure her name is put into nomination,” a person close the negotiations said. “It’s to honor everyone who worked so hard on both sides.”
Thought you would like to know. Perhaps Senator Obama has found a way out of his quandary.
Is it true that someone filed a complaint for McCain to proof he was an American Citizen?
If so, what State was the complaint filed in and to what agency, or Congressman, etc.
I thought McCain just did it on his own because of controversy….which I thought ridiculous because both his parents were American citizens. Military families’ children were always considered citizens of the U.S.
I’m asking because I got no results when I contacted my SOS’ office, but was told it was a federal matter and got the phone#s of Congressman.
I’m not about to make one phone call after another and be given the run around. It should be common knowledge amongst employees of State and Federal government employees who a citizen can contact to make a formal complaint.
If any person cannot show documentation of his past from birth to the present, then in my opinion that person has something to hide. This isn’t the 19th C and, since Obama was born in 1961, when records were more accurate than in the first half of the 20C, there is no reason for all of this mystery and intrigue.
Obama is obligated to show proof of his eligibility, plain and simple. The DNC and no one else has even bothered to question him just because he has a passport or a copy of a copy of his birth certificate that has been doctored up. Doesn’t make any sense to me.
And, who or what agency is responsible for getting the proof from candidates. I heard it was after he was nominated for the General Election. Again, that makes no sense because than the American citizens who voted for that candidate would be betrayed by a person who knew he/she never qualified to begin with.
ok.
The BC is a forgery and he’s lied and covered up his past, what does it take to make him accountable?
What’s the next step? I’ll join the efforts.
I’m not convinced just because Barry was registered for school under the name of “Soetoro” that it proves he was adopted by his step-father.
I used to be a family law attorney and several times I would come across school records of a child registered under the name of the mother’s new husband — without a step-parent adoption ever being done. If the bio father isn’t around to object to it, the mother can get away with doing it.
this is not the picture BUT the next day MSNBC (surprise)has a story of Obama rebutting the “lies” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16813267/
calling them “scurrilous,”
MSNBC site Insight Mag as starting the lies here is the article (that claims Clinton found proof)
http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Obama_2.htm
An investigation of Mr. Obama by political opponents within the Democratic Party has discovered that Mr. Obama was raised as a Muslim by his stepfather in Indonesia. Sources close to the background check, which has not yet been released, said Mr. Obama, 45, spent at least four years in a so-called Madrassa, or Muslim seminary, in Indonesia.
“He was a Muslim, but he concealed it,” the source said. “His opponents within the Democrats hope this will become a major issue in the campaign.”
When contacted by Insight, Mr. Obama’s press secretary said he would consult with “his boss” and call back. He did not.
Sources said the background check, conducted by researchers connected to Senator Clinton, disclosed details of Mr. Obama’s Muslim past. The sources said the Clinton camp concluded the Illinois Democrat concealed his prior Muslim faith and education.
I know this probably won’t go thru, because of the links but hopefully you can read it
My experience as a teacher would lead me to believe that “The pocket”, would most likely mean “the file” or “the folder” where other records are kept such as discipline, health, contact updates and other things normally put in a student’s file or the file from his other school.
It’s an educational entities’ responsibility to keep those records and since it’s just the entry in the registration, they probably had a file number assigned that would have his other info in it. They may have done it by name or student number and intentionally left that space blank after realizing they were just repeating the same info (after using the book for some time period, the found the category wasn’t needed so they didn’t use it anymore).
“Foreign” probably had to do with nationality, further implying that he was a citizen of Indonesia or they would have marked “American” there.
For the bottom blanks, they seem to be places to record information after he graduates or transfers from the school that had not been filled in. Perhaps he wasn’t withdrawn as he should have been and was just “dropped from the role” as we would say in schools today.
I don’t know if these are the answers, but in my professional opinion as a teacher/educator of 16 years, it would be my guess.
CHICAGO TRIBUNE
MARCH 25, 2007
[Begin cut/copy paste]
PART 1 SIDEBAR
History of schooling distorted
By Kim Barker | Tribune foreign correspondent
March 25, 2007
JAKARTA, Indonesia – When Barack Obama was a boy here, he studied for three years at a religious school and prayed four times a day.
It was a Roman Catholic school. There, Obama was registered as student No. 203. “Yes, he prayed, because all the students here had to pray in the Catholic way–`in the name of the Father, [Son] and the Holy Spirit,’” recalled Obama’s 1st-grade teacher, Israella Pareira Darmawan.
Attention on U.S. Sen. Barack Obama’s childhood in Indonesia has so far focused on whether he was a Muslim and whether one of his schools was a fundamentalist Islamic madrassa.
Although his campaign has denied that Obama was a practicing Muslim, the “Islam” issue is not likely to go away soon for the presidential candidate. Some Americans link the religion with terrorism and see Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim nation, as being an alien place, a world away from the White House.
[End cut/copy paste]
Read more…
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703250340mar25,0,4122936.story
“Thought you would like to know. Perhaps Senator Obama has found a way out of his quandary.”
You over estimate the value of this ‘find’.
My parents enrolled me in school as a protestant. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I am one.
Roche // August 14, 2008 at 11:57 am
1- He left for Indonesia at age 2 (a passport) and returned at age 10 (another passport).
2- The fake birth certificate.
It should be easy for Mr. Obama to prove the fact he kept the same name by offering access to the two passports mentioned in 1 above.
I just called an attorney in my State and she said I should call the ACLU because they would handle cases like that.
Problem ???:
Thought I had to be a member for the ACLU to take any action.
Haven’t they already endorsed Obama?
………………………..
To: EmCrouchon
It’s reported that he made a deal so that HRC will announce how she is turning over her delegates to him. Can’t say for sure if it’s true but it doesn’t sound like anything will change. More like to prove more party unity crap.
Or, the fact that Congressman Bill Gwatney (sp.?) from Arkansas, who was a supporter of HRC, was killed yesterday. It all stinks.
To everyone……I don’t know what it was, but I do think that somewhere along the way HRC saw the writing on the wall from her own party being against her.
The time is now for her to do something and she isn’t. Waiting for 2012 doesn’t make sense after all the hard work and money spent.
The democratic party trashed her and basically showed the American people that their votes for HRC didn’t matter. And they’ll do it again in 2012 if she even runs for the office, unless something major changes between now and then.
Obviously, if Obama does become president, he’ll run again and doubt she’d run against him . Just some thoughts……..
Lisa,
I grew up in the region (the Philippines) during that period, and no, we did not use pens. We used Bic ballpoint pens in my school which were cheap. Only the rich kids could afford to use pens, and they often quickly lost them.
I agree Doris T. All the smoke and mirrors in the world isn’t going to hid the truth if Obama gets elected. In fact, I’m beginning to question if this isn’t all just a shake of the shiney keys to draw away from the fact that it is up to Obama to prove his citizenship.
The only REAL story here that I can see is that Obama refuses to provide any factual information to prove he is eligible for POTUS. That is what makes him unfit to serve.
Doris T:
Believe it was the Ron Paul group that did the MCCain challenge – check out his website
Re BO Indo school registration:
There is a video on utube – is by “TOUDONA”
is called “Barack OBama School Life in Indo.
It shows the same document that is posted but in video form with the reported looking over it and comenting on it.
Two other pieces of info:
In my meanerdings around the web I have seen things like – in an indonesian article think it was Detik news – I am paraphrasing here but – Americans saying Barack radical muslim help us put media straight.
Also, an article which was in dutch, where an indonesian person was saying that since BO has Indo. history lets milk it for all it is worth.
Does anyone know if it has been reported that Obama allowed his attorney license to lapse? And why he allowed that to happen?
For those who persist in believing that the Indonesian nationality is a “mistake”:
Would he mistakenly be listed as Indonesian, when his place of birth was clearly listed as Honolulu?
If Lolo was trying to mislead school authorities about BO, why would he lie only about nationality and religion but not about where BO was born?
Since Lolo did state that BO was born in Honolulu, wouldn’t the school have then asked why and how he got Indonesian citizenship? Maybe Lolo showed papers of some kind? It seems to me that such a discrepancy would require explanation.
I just received this e-mail from Howard Dean — sounds like they’re calling on all us disenfranchised Dems to try to pull them out of the hole they dug themselves into. LOL
EMAIL:
This morning our team here sent this email to a group of dedicated supporters, but I’m sending it to everyone I know.
In 2004, the media let right-wing crackpots like Jerome Corsi spread lies about John Kerry. Now Corsi is publishing another hit piece attacking Barack Obama.
This year I’m drawing the line — we’re not going to let Corsi and the Republicans get away with it again.
Scroll down to check out Corsi’s track record of ideologically driven lies and conspiracy theories, then sign up for the DNC Rapid Response Team and help keep these dirty tricks from ruining another election:
http://www.democrats.org/rapidresponse
I hope you’ll forward this email to everyone you know, too.
Thanks,
Howard Dean
—– Original Message —–
From: DNC Rapid Response Team
Subject: A book of lies — your action urgently needed
Friend —
One of the most vile smear peddlers of the 2004 election has found a new target.
Jerome Corsi just published a new book full of rehashed distortions and the same old lies about Barack Obama, and the right-wing noise machine is in full gear promoting it.
In 2004, Corsi helped launch the Swift Boat smear campaign with a book of distortions and lies he wrote about John Kerry. Corsi was so extreme in his misrepresentations that even other Swift Boat attackers tried to distance themselves from him.
We cannot afford to let Corsi get away with the same dirty tricks that fooled so many people in 2004. We can’t rely on the media to hold him accountable — in fact, the sheer brazenness of the lies is attracting even more coverage. The media have shown that they aren’t going to stop him.
It’s up to you to spread the truth, so here it is. Below you will find the facts about Corsi and his desperate fabrications.
Read the latest research for yourself (it’s almost unbelievable) and get this information to everyone you know who is following this election.
Forward this message to your friends and family or use this online tool to get the truth out:
http://www.democrats.org/bookoflies
Together we’ll show Corsi, the Republicans, and John McCain that Barack Obama and the Democrats don’t back down from a fight.
Thanks,
DNC Rapid Response Team
From: #Doris T. // August 14, 2008 at 12:46 pm
[[Does anyone know if it has been reported that Obama allowed his attorney license to lapse? And why he allowed that to happen?]]
On pages 77-78 and then again on page 174, author Andy Martin in “The Man Behind the Mask” says that in 2001 (around the same time as the Tony Rezko controversy, both Mr Obama and his wife Michelle Obama “cancelled” their law licences.
I/We all thought it had to do with him not wanting to become disbarred because of the Rezko story… but from what we now know, perhaps if a supena and/or bar investigation was brought up against Obama he might have had to produce all his records. And we can’t have that, right! Hummm… just a thought!
But that school was Catholic?
Doris, you’re getting the runaround by your state attorney. This isn’t case for the ACLU. You’re civil rights aren’t affected. Consitutional eligibility doesn’t infringe on your civil rights. This case would be under the jurisdiction of whoever handles elections (either your state secretary of state or a state election board). If they aren’t going to accept a challenge, then it would be probably be up to your state’s attorney general to investigate.
When John McCain’s birth nationality came into question because he was born in Panama, he quickly walked into the senate or senate committee (forget which( and plopped his birth certificate on the table for all to see and review).
Not so with Mr O who is extremely evasive and tight lipped.
I wonder if the election boards of any of our fifty states will open an investigation to determine Obama’s eligibility on the ballot?
Should we really be referring to him as Obama?
Markham Robinson filed a lawsuit challenging Mccain in Vacaville CA in March. There is pdf floating around of the entire pleading but I forgot to save it.
I’m stealing time from real work to play with this and the COLB for a moment on the other computer. Using Corel PhotopaintX3, this is very easy though with other programs.
1. Make a copy of the image of this registration form. (CtrlC) and copy directly over (CtrlV)
2. On the Objects docker, change the merge method to subtract.
This brings out the printing on the back a little better. If it were turned over, we would see a column about 1/4 the length of the paper with these unreadable names–subject? “runs with scissors”? whatever is being marked off, and the rest is filled up with square boxes (many little columns). Not very illuminating.
On the COLB, I did the same thing. Zooming in, used the Color Mask tool and used the eyedropper to pick the green in the cross-hatch pattern. Invert the mask and it may be easier to see this. When you do this you see the background is very unevenly masked. The difference is marked between the printed areas and the open area where the seal should be. If you now drop the copied layer on top and change the merge settings, the borders look really bad, crisp in places and not in others. Perhaps Polarik could comment. Does this indicate the document was washed with solvent and some of the background green was smeared around? Sorry I have to go back to work now!
I cannot accept OB as my Pres. of the U.S. I still feel he will give away our freedom and rights of this country to the enemy and there are many at this time! I hope this doc reveals a truth that exposes and unravels his Pres. candidacy to the Democratic Party.
This article in Huffpo August 2nd has some wording that might be relevant. Makes me wonder if Obama might have been born somewhere else, then brought to the U.S. to be registered, and also notice the ‘20 year plan’ that is being ‘hatched’.
“But there’s no reason to be afraid. Currently, if someone moves to the US just one day after being born, he or she cannot run for president. Does that make any sense? Is it fair?
What’s more, there is a way to ensure that an immigrant has built enough ties to this country. Just require all naturalized presidential candidates to have been US citizens for at least 20 years (that’s what Hatch has proposed).
Finally, there’s political reality: immigrants usually have a tougher time running for any political office. While there’s no doubt Obama was born in the USA (in Hawaii), some voters still ask whether he is “really” American — but give McCain a free pass. Why? Because, unlike McCain, Obama had an immigrant father and spent part of his childhood in a country where Christianity isn’t the majority religion.
Like McCain and Obama, we are all proud citizens of the United States. Let’s make it possible for every American to dream about becoming president.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gautam-dutta/john-mccain-citizen-of-th_b_116547.html
Doris T, There was a suit filed against McCain in federal court but it was eventually dismissed because of lack of standing precisely because he was not yet the nominee. McCain revealed his bc anyway which ended it. What I find most interesting about that is that the democrat-led senate, in a resolution co-sponsored by Obama, proclaimed that McCain was eligible. Why did they do no such thing for Obama, then or now? My belief is that Obama hoped that resolution would somehow spill over to him. In fact, he argued for some wording that might have helped in that regard but it was not included.
…JCM, Thank you. I haven’t got to the Ron Paul site yet, but I will check it out.
…Rachel, I agree…Obama is unfit to serve with all this mystery that he likes surrounding him.
…Miri, thats a good point I wonder what kind of documents Soetoro would have had to show.
……………………….
The worst part of this for me is that there doesn’t seem to be a person or agency that is responsible for collecting documents to proof any candidates eligibility for POTUS. How messed up is that?!?!
When I go to the Ron Paul site, I’m going to ask why he didn’t check Obama’s eligibility. At least McCain was born to two parents who were both American citizens.
This is not news. Go to all the links that are in this post and the comments. A picture of what everyone already knows is not “Breaking” news. Of course the MSM won’t touch this story. They already reported the story more than a year ago.
It sounds like the previous articles in the MSM about Soetoro’s Indonesian schooling that tried to debunk stories of him being a Muslim or an Indonesian citizen have deliberately avoided showing the photo of that school register page. Perhaps they already knew that a photo is worth a thousand words and all the attempts to debunk it will pale in comparison.
I don’t think this information will change anything in Denver BUT it will change how some of those in the middle of the country (undecideds) will feel about him. I think his lies will lose him another 10% of the voters because when all is said and done there are still a lot of people out there that don’t want “no furriner” running our country.
From: dk // August 14, 2008 at 12:31 pm
[[ You over estimate the value of this ‘find’.
My parents enrolled me in school as a protestant. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I am one.]]
I don’t think you get it. What is important is that he lied on several *LEGAL* documents including when he became a lawyer, when he ran as senator and also when he submitted his name to run for the President.
- He lied about his other legal names.
- He lied about being a Moslem.
- A president cannot hold dual citizenship.
“Gibbs said he wasn’t sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim.”
I guess it never occurred to Gibbs that Barry’s step-father would have adopted him and had his religion changed in order to raise him in Indonesia.
“Haven’t they already endorsed Obama?”
I don’t think the ACLU endorses candidates. If they endorsed Obama, I am returning my blue card.
I have updated my post extensively at Red Hot and Blue Politics. I’ve also crossposted at Alegre’s Corner. The photo is authentic and matches several other reported accounts of Obama’s past school record 203. I also conclude that Obama has lied about his Muslim upbringing to conceal it from the American people. Obama, or the man known as Obama, is a liar and not fit to be President of the United States.
Re: Polarik
Think internationally. Dates are written differently.
Example:
7-3-2007 would be the same as March 7, 2007.
What I can see shows 4-8-1961, which is the same as August 4, 1961.
The other interesting item that I noticed was on line 8b. pekerjaan (or pekerdjaan, suggested translation of job or occupation) most of the handwriting on that line seems unreadable. What is decipherable is the word ‘Geografi’, a quick translation reveals that the word in English is Geography. The vast majority of the articles on the web suggest that Lolo Soetero was employed as a Geologist not a Geographer. One article on the web notes that Soetero studied Geography in Hawaii but exists only in cached form.
The absence of a mothers signature verifies one of the stories that a Chicago Tribune columnist wrote.
Have you seen the article in American Thinker and also at Real Barack Obama which reports that Leah Daulhtry is to speek at convention -
The American Thinker’s article is called “wright in a Dress” – so much for Obama’s separation from the black liberation theology of “Whites owe us” -
— Laura // August 14, 2008 at 12:17 pm
I would agree except for the fact that the school in question is in another country.
Since the Soetoro’s intended to live in Indonesia, it makes more sense that Obama would have been adopted and thereby acquire his stepfather’s citizenship.
Here is a copy of my email that I left on the Ron Paul website:
I know there was a petition or complaint from this site for Senator John McCain to show his eligibility for POTUS.
I’m requesting if you could also petition for Senator Barack Obama do show if he meets the requirements as a presidential candidate. There has been so much said on the internet about this matter.
Obama’s website has a forged or doctored COLB on his website. Also, there are now copies of his registration at a school in Indonesia where he is stated as being a citizen of Indonesia.
I think it’s time for Senator Obama to prove his eligibility by showing the American people a hard copy of his birth certificate and certificate of life birth.
I would appreciate hearing from you as to whether you could act upon my request. Thank you!
Sincerely,
Doris T.
To TheGodsMustBeCrazy: I don’t know what your point is about the translation of, or lack of translation for, certain words; but if you’re trying to change “citizenship” into “race” or something like “people” to confuse the issue . . .
From the Kamus online English-Indonesian Dictionary:
Bangsa: Country, land, nation
Warganegara: Citizen: a native or naturalized member of a state or other political community
Keturunan: Descendant
Asing: Alien, exotic, noncitizen, outlander, strange, alien, foreign, foreigner
Suku bangsa: Folk, tribe
So this does not appear to be a question about race.
If it were, then obviously, Lolo wouldn’t have been able to answer “Indonesian” since many of the people BO lived amongst particularly noted that he wasn’t one of them. He was teased by them exactly because he wasn’t one of them (with regard to his race).
It certainly appears to me that Lolo indicated on those papers that BO was a naturalized citizen of Indonesia.
As for the phrase “keturunan asing”, it’s difficult to perceive what it means. It appears to be a phrase used for persons born in Indonesia of foreign descent (particularly Chinese-Indonesians). It had a political meaning, especially during the Suharto period, a meaning which escapes me because I am not a historian or linguist.
In any case, I don’t believe, from what I’ve read, that it would apply to BO, which is probably why it was left blank on the form.
Someone who knows more about Indonesia may be able to clarify the meaning for us.
[...] blogger and No Quarter contributor “TexasDarlin” alleges proof of such a damaging document, a January 24, 2007, Associated Press photograph of a registration document for Barack Obama at [...]
Miri wrote: “If Lolo was trying to mislead school authorities about BO, why would he lie only about nationality and religion but not about where BO was born?
“Since Lolo did state that BO was born in Honolulu, wouldn’t the school have then asked why and how he got Indonesian citizenship? Maybe Lolo showed papers of some kind? It seems to me that such a discrepancy would require explanation.”
Miri, the key here is that, according to the research done by Judah Benjamin, Lolo *didn’t state anything*–this information all came from official identity documents. Indonesia was an actual police state, and this was a state school; the required, “your papers, please.”
What is in that school record would be whatever was on BHO/BS’s official identity document. And the only way that identity document would have the data that’s in his school record is if he had been adopted by Lolo Soetoro and became an Indonesian citizen.
As JB has pointed out, they were very careful with records in that police state–the school record would *not* be “full of errors” as Obama has purported. And has JB has further pointed out, not only is it not full of errors, it says *exactly* what it *should* say if LS had legally adopted BHOII.
[...] *Breaking* Photo Documents Barry Soetoro: Indonesian Citizen, Muslim Religion [Update with Translati... [...]
Oh please, people…
The document is dated 1/1/68, right? That makes Obama, or whoever the subect is, six years old. Now how many 6-year-olds have you ever seen that could make a decision on their religion or write their name? You do know that Lolo Soetoro became the stepfather within a year before? Doesn’t it occur to anyone that the father filled out the application with his own surname and religion, leaving the boy no choice in the matter?
And am I the only one who sees a diagonal ’strike’ line through the whole page?
What has happened to the human brain?
“Barack Obama lied to the Illinois Supreme Court” From Cao’s Blog (”Terrible Lie”)
http://rosettasister.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/%e2%80%9cbarack-obama-lied-to-the-illinois-supreme-court%e2%80%9d-from-cao%e2%80%99s-blog-terrible-lie/
I guess nobody will ask Mr. Obama whether the alleged birth certificate circulated by his organization and on his behalf is genuine or not. Freedom of the press…
truthmonger,
Have you not been following the discussion?–”The father” didn’t fill out the information; the school copied it down from his official identity card.
BHOII/BS’s age matters not. If he was adopted, he was adopted. If he became an Indonesian citizen, then he was an Indonesian citizen. If he thereby lost his U.S. citizenship, then he is no longer a U.S. citizen and inelligible to run for dogcatcher, let alone president. If he didn’t lose his U.S. citizenship, his dual citizenship ended his standing as a “natural born” citizen of the United State.
That’s why all this matters.
BA wrote, “I guess nobody will ask Mr. Obama whether the alleged birth certificate circulated by his organization and on his behalf is genuine or not. Freedom of the press…”
BA, the place to ask these questions is when he is under oath during a deposition or on the witness stand during a legal challenge into his eligibility to run for President of the United States.
As we learn from the above comments about the McCain challenge by Ron Paul, the time to make that challenge is immediately after the Democratic party registers his name for the office of POTUS with some state.
At ObamaImpeachment .org there is a petition to impeach Obama/Soetoro/? from the Senate based on the falsities and lies we’re discussing here.
…Truthmonger,
All of us get our religion from our parents. But Obama is not saying that, he is covering up the info by simply not telling the truth.
I’m not sure if you are implying that the line means it’s incorrect info or it’s not valid. As SolarPowered has mentioned, Indonesia was a police state so a fraudulent copy would have been reported.
So, while the line means something to you based on U.S. practices. It doesn’t mean the same in Indonesia because Obama stayed in the school until he went back to Hawaii in 1971.
Please go here and comment:
“Dissecting Obama’s School Record”
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dissecting-obamas-school-record/
Responding to Joh Mirse at 1:18 AM
John,
The son of the former Finance Minister under Suhaarto was one of my students for 3 years. His mother would come and stay with me about 4 times a year .
If Soetoro, as a government Employee LIED about Barky having Indonesian Citizenship he would have been completely BLACK BALLED all over SE Asia and the Pacific Rim. The Indonesian are extremely sensitive and protective of their status as citizens, and who can call themsleves citizens.
Believe me Ann Dunham would not have been able to spend 3 more days in Indonesia, never mind most of the rest of her life. And Lolo would have died of something much more drastic than Cirrosis of the Liver, and at a much younger age.
TD- Barry is preparing to hit back hard-especially against Corsi- See here:
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/obama_campaign_mapping_out_agg.php
SolarPowered // August 14, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I get your points.
You have to get that far in the proceeding and to get that far you need to get access to the birth certificates, the sealed one and the second one.
Once you have obtained these two documents, the only thing left to be done would be a criminal charge for fraud against Obama, if the documents contradict his alleged birth certificate, and an accused does not have to say anything.
Just a thought. You might be right. I don’t know.
…Cosmeta
Thanks for the info. I’m finding this very odd that they both gave up their law licenses and it was in 2001 according to Corsi? Was it after 9;11, did he say because there should be a date of expiration?
Obama took his pin off (as he said) after 9/11. I always found that odd because that was the time to wear it.
Truthmonger, what Obama did as a child is unimportant. What he did as an adult is very important. Did he hide his real identity on legal forms? Did he have Indonesian citizenship? Can he produce the birth certificate that he claimed in his book that he possessed?
Solar- ‘the father didn’t fill out the information’ huh?
From the photo link, quote:
“This registration document, made available on Jan. 24, 2007, by the Fransiskus Assisi school in Jakarta, Indonesia, shows the registration of Barack Obama under the name Barry Soetoro into the Catholic school made by his step-father, Lolo Soetoro.”
Check those last six words.
When you’re done with that, come back and explain how a dual citizenship, which hasn’t been proven anyway, would erase the fact of where one was born. Is that also true for John McCain, who was born in Panama?
In any case for this to fly it’s necessary to believe that a six-year-old kid came up with all this as conscious choice.
“Indonesia was a police state so a fraudulent copy would have been reported.” — hard to argue with logic like that.
BA,
In my “I Am Not A Lawyer” opinion, I believe that the forged CoLB on BO’s web site and the above school record school record would be sufficient basis for filing a legal action challenging BHOII’s eligibility for the office of POTUS.
Once that challenge has been filed (which would be a civil action, not criminal, so the Fifth Amendment isn’t applicable), he can be ordered to produce his birth certificate, passports, etc., and can be questioned under oath about anything reasonably related to the subject. I suspect is might be possible to subpoena his records from Hawaii, and it may also be possible to unseal any adoption records.
TexasDarling; just saw this post at NQ on your thread,,, don’t know if you had seen it.
It maybe cooking low and slow but that BBQ’in Texas Style.
Comment by ranpha | 2008-08-14 10:08:18
3c. Suku bangsa translates to 3c. Race, not the pocket.
6. Dari sekolah mana (dipindahkan) dan kelas berapa translates to 6. From which school (moved from) and what class.
Under 8.b (nama ibu diisi, hanja djika ajah sudah meninggal) translates to (name of the mother will only be used if father is deceased). Your translation implied that Soetoro’s mother name will be filled here if she died.
Translation of item no 10.
10. Left this school: ___________
A. Not graduated yet. Moved from class ________ dated ______________ reason ___MOVING__.(t/l note: MOVING is the handwritten text in item no.10)
B. Graduated. Received the diploma/certificate at: _____ No. _________ (t/l note: No. is an abbreviation for the word “number”).
Well, that’s about it. The form uses a form of Bahasa Indonesia that is not standardized yet.
Reply to this comment
Comment by Clinton Fan | 2008-08-14 10:29:54
WOW–thank you for that. That’s very much appreciated!
I know those translation pages sometimes get it wrong, and “The Pocket” made absolutely no sense–but your translation des.
It helps when someone familiar with the language can give us insight.
Thanks again!!!
Reply to this comment
Comment by ranpha | 2008-08-14 12:47:36
After I read the original source at http://blog.changeandexperience.com/, I just find out that the author of the blog wrongly read some parts of the form.
He got item no.1 and 2 right. BTW, see the table at the left of 1. Nama murid (1. Student name) with the letters ‘L’ and ‘P’? That will indicate the sex of the student, ‘L’ for male and ‘P’ for female. Barry Soetoro’s name is written on the row labeled ‘L’, which indicates his sex.
The author got it seriously wrong on no.3. He transcribed it as:-
3. Bangai: a. Warga negara: Indonesia
b. Ketarunan asing: (blank)
c. Saku bangra: (blank)
When I read the larger form at the site myself, it should have read:-
3. Bangsa: a. Warga negara: Indonesia
b. Keturunan asing: (blank)
c. Suku bangsa: (blank)
No wonder the blog author get ‘the pocket’ as translation.
Translated to English:
3. Race: a. Nationality: Indonesia
b. Foreign nationality: (blank) – filled if not Indonesian.
c. Race: (blank) – if you are Indonesian, should be filled with any of Indonesia’s ethnic group like Malay or Javanese etc. Very surprising that this is left empty if he claimed to be Indonesian.
Author got no. 4 right. This is the most important thing anyway. The same applies to no. 5.
No.6 has been addressed above.
For no.7, the author transcribed:-
7. a. Diterima disekedah inl tgl.: 1-1-1968 (January 1, 1968)
b. Ditermpatkan dikelas: I (First grade)
It should have been:-
7. a. Diterima disekolah ini tgl.: 1-1-1968 (January 1, 1968).
b. Ditempatkan dikelas: I (First grade)
Translated:
7. a. Admitted to this school at the date: 1-1-1968 (January 1, 1968).
b. Enrolled in class: I (First grade)
No.8 is quite important, because the layout has been discounted by the author. He transcribed it as this:-
8. a. Nama grang tua Alah/Ibu (The name of the parents Mr/Ms): L. Soetoro M A (Lolo Soetoro)
b. Pekerjaan (Occupation/Job):
Pep. Dr…i..s Geografi Dib. Targo A.D (???? Geography ????)
(name ibu dsi, haaja djika ajah sudah meninggal) (Name of the mother ??? if died)
c. Alamat (The address): Menteng Dalam (Menteng Dalam – an administrative village of Tebet, a subdistrict of South Jakarta, Indonesia) R001/R003
Should have read:-
8. a. Nama orang tua Ayah/Ibu: L.Soetoro M A (Lolo Soetoro).
b. Pekerjaan: Pep. Dr…i..s Geografi Dib. Targo A.D (???? Geography ????) – the writing is atrocious really, but I think Pep. should have been Peg. (pegawai or officer).
(name ibu disi, haaja djika ajah sudah meninggal)
c. This one is correct.
Translated:-
8. a. Parents name Mr/Mrs: L.Soetoro M A (Lolo Soetoro).
b. Occupation: Peg. Dr…i..s Geografi Dib. Targo A.D (???? Geography ????)
(name of the mother will only be used if father is deceased).
It is a shame really that Obama’s mother name is not written in the form above. AFAIK, if a non-Muslim wants to marry a Muslim in Indonesia, he/she has to convert to Islam too. If she, ALLEGEDLY (don’t sue me), does when she marries Lolo Soetoro, more often than not, she will have to change her name (Stanley Ann is not exactly suitable for a Muslim name in that region), we would have seen this reflected here. Alas, mother’s name will only be written if the father has died so I will never get to find out.
Item no.9 is for guardians only (if both parents died or because of other things like parents sending their child to a hostel or a relative house for schooling – common during that time, even now, in Indonesia). The fact that it is empty shows Obama is adopted by Lolo.
Item no. 10 has been addressed above.
The author transcribed item no. 11 as:-
11. Keterangan lsim: (blank)
It should read:
11. Keterangan lain: (blank)
which translates:
11. Other information: (blank)
SolarPowered: You’re right and that’s a good point about Lolo having to present identity papers for BO.
I was simply trying to dissect the spin that’s put on this issue by the MSM.
News stories dismissed the nationality and religion as mistakes. Even Pamela Geller did, with regard to nationality.
Judah blew that out of the water with his excellent analysis. But the MSM isn’t printing Judah’s argument, and logic doesn’t matter to anyone who’s in the tank for BO in the first place. Any explanation will suffice for them.
About those terms on the registration form, regarding foreign descent and tribe: After reflection, I believe that they were not filled in for BO because neither applied to him, due to his birth in Honolulu.
From what I’ve read, Indonesia at the time was concerned with who was a “true” Indonesian.
For a member of an indigenous tribe–there were apparently many tribes–the school filled in the tribal line.
For those who weren’t members of an indigenous tribe–usually Chinese-Indonesians– the school filled in the “foreign descent” line.
The categories seem to be mutually exclusive, but neither applied to BO because he wasn’t born in Indonesia, as was clearly stated at the top of the form.
Therefore, he was probably a naturalized citizen of Indonesia. At least, that’s what the document appears to say.
That the government focused so much attention on such details supports Judah’s argument that these are not errors.
Schools in Indonesia cannot be compared to schools in the U.S. Its institutions are quite different from those of a police state.
SolarPowered is perfectly correct that the information no doubt came from whatever documents Lolo presented to the school, especially since it’s been noted before that only citizens could attend public schools.
BO was listed as Muslim at the public school, as well as at the Catholic school. To believe these were mistakes is to believe that they happened twice, at two different schools.
Truthmonger: The slash through the record may simply indicate that he was crossed off the ledger when he left for the public school. What else would a teacher do? Rewrite her entire book? Tear out the page, when another student’s grades were on the reverse?
There’s a reason why they didn’t print this photo with the story. They didn’t want anyone to ask BO questions about nationality and religion–questions they stirred up by going there in the first place, trying to disprove the madrassa angle.
They mentioned religion and nationality in an offhand way, to give credence to the story. But they gave it their spin, too: These were mistakes or are simply inexplicable. We already know them to be false. Don’t we?
They may not have expected to find what they DID find, but it didn’t matter because they managed to hide part of the truth (in plain sight).
For all those frothing at the mouth about dual citizenship and implications on eligibility for POTUS:
“No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.” -United States Constitution, Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 5.
Nothing about dual or migrating citizenship.
truthmonger wrote: “Check those last six words.”
TM, that’s the caption supplied by the photographer; the translation of the record in no way states that the information is off-the-cuff stuff from LS’s memory. As Judah Benjamin was written about at length, in Indonesia at that time, that informatiaon would have been copied directly from BHO/BS’s and the family’s identity documents.
truthmonger wrote: “When you’re done with that, come back and explain how a dual citizenship, which hasn’t been proven anyway, would erase the fact of where one was born. Is that also true for John McCain, who was born in Panama?”
TM, your jaybearing is getting tiresome–please read the background material before commenting on it. As Judah Benjamin has again written about at length, the term “natural born citizen” as it appears in the Consitution of the United States comes from preexisting English common law that goes back to at least 1337, and addresses the question of divided loyalties.
Common law is clear that children of “embassadors” of the sovereign who are born “beyond the sea” while the parents are in the service of the sovereign are natural-born subjects. Even if they have involuntary dual-citizenship because of the location of their birth, that still does not effect their natural-born status, [i]so long as the other citizenship is never used.[/i]
John McCain never used his Panamanian citizenship, and in fact lost it when he joined the U.S. Navy.
Barack Obama was in point of fact an active Indonesian citizen. This terminated his status as a “natural born” citizen of the United States, even if it didn’t terminate his U.S. citizenship.
There is a separate question of whether becoming an Indonesian citizen may have actually terminated his U.S. citizenship. This is a complex question of international law that has not been answered at this point, and possibly can’t be without a Supreme Court ruling on the subject.
The constitution says nothing about dual citizenship and therefore nothing about whether one would have to be in adulthood to have eligibility ramifications. The argument would be that a president who had been a citizen of another country, even as a child, might well still have feelings of loyalty toward that other country. It is a sound if not conclusive argument. But it will never come to that. “Obama lacks American roots.” Get used to hearing that. It is demonstrably true and alone is sufficient to doom his candidacy.
NATIONAL ENQUIRER: SEND A TIP TO
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/tip/
the more of us who write, the more likely they are to investigate.
In tip to Enuirer, include TD’s link to this story:
http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/breaking-photo-documents-barry-soetoro-indonesian/#comments
Solar, you’ve missed the point entirely- bringing up McCain was for contrast, not challenge. I’ve never disputed McCain’s eligibility.
But let’s focus on this:
“Barack Obama was in point of fact an active Indonesian citizen.”
- and how do we know this?
I do hope it’s not based solely on a 45-year-old school form from Indonesia, which for all we know now could have been falsified to grease the school wheels. Surely we have a more credible source?
Regardless of that, if one is born in the US, then one is by definition a natural-born citizen of the US, which fulfills the first POTUS requirement (see the Constitution above). Or is there evidence -any at all- that Obama at some point renounced his citizenship?
AMES:
“Why the hell are we doing things like this?” Because we love our country, that’s why. We are not one issue people.Our effort is way beyond feminism. We are unmasking a lying megalomaniac. Obama is extremely dangerous and must not be allowed anywhere near the White House. And the business about McCain being more of the same is Obama propaganda. I remember when it first came out.
Teakwood has an interesting comment about the wife of Muslim needing to have a Muslim name and that Stanley Ann was not typical of such a name. Wasn’t she known as Anna Toot by the Obamas in Kenya?? Is it possible she was using this as an alias to appear to be Muslim?? I’m not sure if Anna Toot would be a Muslim name, but it makes sense as to why she was known this way in Kenya, plus it would show that she engaged in efforts to deceive … else she would have had her name changed somewhere along the line. Maybe Obama was born Barry Toot.
If the MSM won’t release this for the American Public, we need to take it in our own hands. Let’s take out a full page ad in USA Today and release the story, the photo and the facts. I think all of us would fund such an ad.
I have confirmation from AP via email this afternoon that the photograph of the document is legit. I have posted this info on my site, http://www. theproblemwithobama.com and also at NoQuarterUsa.
Matthew
Joe,
Yes, BIC pens revolutionize the writing world during the mid 1960’s. They became very affordable and disposable.
But that document looks like a fountain pen writing. Some people prefer writing with a fountain pen because they’re use to it and took pride in their penmanship.
My English grandmother used one. Penmanship depended on hand pressure too. Fountain pens were real sensitive about that.
Example….
http://the-write-biz.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/pen_paper.jpg
I use to do this as a toddler.
They were messy and ball point pens came into favor in my household when BIC’s hit the market.
http://www.selectism.com/uploads/RTEmagicC_dupont_pen_usb.jpg.jpg
Notice ballpoint pens have a nice even flow.
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F9F/H6L1/JXQEP27WIJC/F9FH6L1JXQEP27WIJC.MEDIUM.jpg
Doris T. 4:11pm
Obama took his pin off (as he said) after 9/11. I always found that odd because that was the time to wear it.
Obama wrote in his 2nd book, Audacity of Hope paperback edition: “I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction”
This is OT a little-
I posted on NQ about the uneven background of the COLB and immediately a well-known troll jumped on it, so I am reposting here, why the unevenness is significant. (Because if a troll likes it…)
se, this is how it works:
The forger knows that there are two kinds of inks. He does NOT want to mess up his background pattern! It is check paper and it looks like that so monkey business will show up.
The forger only wants, therefore, to take off the black ink, leaving the green ink intact. So, he uses a solvent specific for the black. When the black appears to be gone, he puts in his new type.
However, it appears that the green is messed up, it is either faded in some spots or it has become darker in some spots. This can happen if:
1. The solvent was not 100% specific for the black ink and it leached some of the green ink.
2. The solvent may have been 100% specific, but some of the black particles remained imbedded in the paper in that area.
3. The washing process abraded the surface enough to remove some of the green ink as well as the black.
4. Some combination of the above.
I am only saying that with the color mask and contrast method, it is obvious that this document has a very un-official unevenness in the background, yet the background is part of the forgery protection.
Responding to the troll’s assertion that the Michelle COLB was equally uneven, in short, it is not only not uneven, it is so even, it is just how one would expect it to be, and it reaffirms that there is a basic color change as outline above. Also, it looks like the border was replaced, or something–maybe the black ink left the green diamonds of the BO COLB, but it ain’t the same.
1- Obama must present a recent certified copy of his birth certificate.
2- Obama must identify when he was adopted.
3-Obama must show when he legally changed his name from Soetoro to Obama.
Easy enough to do. I know many people who have to do these very things when they go to the DMV. So what is the hold up?
truthmonger wrote: “- and how do we know this?”
Sorry, I was trying to avoid writing too long of a dissertation on the subject. By using the phrase “in point of fact” I was trying to avoid a paragraph discussing the difference between a *de facto* citizen, that is, a citizen in fact, and one who has only theoretical citizenship. I didn’t intend to imply that his Indonesian citizenship is a proven fact, because as you quite correctly point out, it has not been proven. I meant rather to point out that his citizenship, if it existed, was a *de facto* citizenship.
This has all been known for a while.
History of schooling distorted
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703250340mar25,0,4122936.story
Sent my tip and request to investigate to NE.
How many others have done the same?
Great work to TD, JB and others.
truthmonger wrote: “Regardless of that, if one is born in the US, then one is by definition a natural-born citizen of the US, (see the Constitution above).”
And you know this, how, exactly? Methinks you are jaybearing again.
The Constitution does not define the term “natural born.”
If you want to understand what a term means in the Constitution, you have to first turn to Court precedents that define the term (there is essentially no U.S. case law about this), and if that fails, you then turn to English common law, which is the legal framework out of which our Constitution was drawn.
Please state the English common law references that establish your position of what “natural-born citizen” means.
truth monger, don’t cry…it’s going to be RNC’s October surprise to your messiah! Until then, stop with your comments and read Judah Benjamin’s docs on dual citizenship and what it means ’cause you’re kinda annoying the sh*t out of us with your snippets of no info.
Interesting…
nurserachet5:
me! I’ve been desperately writing everyone I can think of for almost two months. I even wrote Arnold Schwarzenegger to see if he would get involved because he can’t be president either because of being born in Austria. Better the Governator than the Obamanation.
I think what needs to be known is why the information that has been around for a long time was deemed to be just a mistake and errors on the paperwork. Who said so and why?
Mountain Sage
Here is an excellent website that will help everyone understand that Islam is not an ‘inherited’ faith.
http://www.islamonline.net/englsh/Family/2005/06/article04.shtml.
Here is an excerpt of the article:
“The phenomenon of children “opting out” of Islam is virtually unheard of in most Muslim countries, for obvious reasons relating to the societal and cultural norms of those countries. However, for Muslim parents in the West, the threat of children choosing not to follow their religion is real. As one father struggling with this dilemma put it, “In Canada we are free to practice our faith. It’s a wonderful place to grow up as a Muslim. However, my 13-year-old son has had problems living in this great country. My son has decided Islam is not for him, that he has discovered too many flaws in the faith.” This is just one brave example of the very real challenges Muslim parents are facing in the West in regard to their children growing up with a sense of religious freedom.
Many parents who were born in Muslim lands and who did not grow up with a sense of choice in regard to religion are living in the West and raising children who often find it difficult to strike a balance between the culture of their parents’ native lands and that of their own countries. Both parents and children are learning that in the West, the freedom to choose one’s faith is somewhat of a cultural assumption: an assumption that people—all people—are free to choose their religious path.
The resulting struggle between the youth and their parents often turns into a trying experience for both and is completely foreign to parents who were raised with completely different assumptions. Thus, many are unsure of how to respond to their children’s questioning—and often direct challenging—of what most of us consider to be the self-evident truths of Islam. Often, the parents’ reaction is hostile: submit or else! Others, however, choose the lenient/liberal approach and just let their children do as they wish, for perhaps Islam is not that important to them anyway. Most, however, are probably somewhere in between, very confused, and unsure of how to respond.”
Further down it states:
“The Qur’an stresses the importance of individual belief. Practices without belief are useless in the eyes of Allah. Insincere practice is a dead-end that gets us nowhere. We cannot believe for our children. Whether they pray, recite and learn Qur’an, fast, pay zakah, and all the other things, does not matter one iota if they do not believe in Allah with all their hearts. Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet Mohammad said,
“The Almighty Allah judges you neither by your countenance nor your wealth, but by the purity of your hearts and your deeds.”
Hope this helps.
A highly respected and wonderful Democratic leader was shot and killed in Arkansas because of hate. The hate generated on this site will only cause more democrats and innocent bystanders including children to be killed. Of course you will say it is not hate; however, clearly it is. People can make a positive difference in this country without spreading assumptions, confusion and fear on the Internet. Ofcourse you will blame it on Obama, however, every time an innocent Democrat or bystander whether man, woman, boy, or girl is murdered, their blood is on your hands because you are igniting the hate and fear. So give yourselves a pat on the back and keep doing what you’re doing; you will reap what you sow. May God bless the people of Arkansas as they mourn their loss. And may God have mercy on your souls.
Lisa,
This discussion about what kind of pen was used to write on the page is pointless unless the original page is actually examined. As previously mentioned at least twice above, the photo appears to be that of the school register belonging to his teacher Israella Darmawan who showed it to the reporter writing the news article that discussed it.
http://tinyurl.com/6yclty
http://old.thejakartapost.com/weekender/6reporter.asp
Matthew according to his post at NQ contacted AP about it and verified that the photo is legit. Now why would his school teacher be carrying around a school register with a fake entry for one of her students? Wouldn’t she risk losing her job or arrest during the Suharto dictatorship at the time for falsifying records?
SolarPowered // August 14, 2008 at 6:27 pm
It is an interesting topic..probably won’t be settled until/unless The SCOTUS gives the definition or Congress adds another amend. to the Constitution.
Until a legal test is done..The US Code is probably it..
“Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are “citizens of the United States at birth:”
* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person’s status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.”
I have a fair knowledge of Indonesian nationality law, given my Indonesian wife and my son born there, and Barack has no entitlement to Indonesian nationality whatsoever. In Indonesian law the citizenship would follow the father, who was of course Kenyan.
I daresay his parents found it convenient to write Indonesian on forms (because Indonesia has and had a lot of laws discriminating against foreigners, chiefly aimed at the Chinese), but that doesn’t make him Indonesian.
I understand that a lot of people *want* him to be Indonesian, but for a child born in Hawaii to a Kenyan father this wouldn’t be possible. That’s the plain and simple fact. The father is not Indonesian, there is no Indonesian nationality.
Be aware as well that paperwork in Indonesia is not exactly as formal as it is in the West, and in those days, I can only imagine it was even less formal. It’s rather like the underage Chinese gymnasts – papers can easily be falsified on payment of bribes, and in a case of school entry it wouldn’t need to get that far, you would simply bribe the school not to probe into the paperwork.
just to clarify, it absolutely would not be normal nor necessary to have a child adopted in order to raise him in Indonesia (because it would be more expensive to do that than to offer bribes as needed). The only way it might have happened is if Obama’s step-father and/or his mother felt strongly about him becoming Indonesian, which is possible, but even then, it’s a fair step from the evidence here to suggest that that happened.
[...] http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/breaking-photo-documents-barry-soetoro-indonesian/ [...]
“Doth the candidate protest too much here?”
“AP photo of school register reveals “Barry Soetoro” as muslim Indonesian”
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13056.htm
EXCERPT
The listing of Barry Soetoro as a Muslim contradicts what appears on his campaign’s Fight the Smears website, where he says that “I have never been a Muslim.” In a private meeting with Jewish leaders in February, Obama emphatically re-stated the claim, but with a bit of a twist. He said: “I am not, nor have I ever been, a Muslim (especially an anti-American one).”
Doth the candidate protest too much here? Indeed, he is parrotting the language used in the 1950s by those who denied Communist ties. No one is claiming, here, that Obama is anti-American. But the image of his school registration doesn’t lie, and indicates clearly that he was registered as a Muslim, and thus, despite the claim of his spokesman, he didn’t study the catechism. Barry Soetoro studied the Koran.
Thank you TD for the continued updates and your hard work on this.
You should receive some type of journalism award for the work you have done this election season.
I haven’t seen anyone out there doing a better job than you and NQ.
If the powers that be don’t give you recognition, then at least know that we, your readers, do. I hereby nominate you as Civilian Journalist of the year!
(the MSM should be trying to hire you instead of seeking to discredit you in any way, shape or form!!!….I don’t know that they are, but just in case they do)
Nan,
If you are saying that attempting to find out if your candidate meets the U.S. Constitution’s requirements to be POTUS is a form of hate, that your god will be angry with us for doing so and will result in innocents being killed then you are clearly a zealot and off your rocker.
Those of you that keep talking about dual citizenship in the Constitution need to learn about this nifty tool called “Google”. Article II is not the only part of the Constitution that is important here.
Check out the 14th Ammendment then come back and tell us if dual citizenship matters or not in the office of POTUS.
(hint: it matters a LOT)
Here’s a nice article that will help out some of you who are depending entirely on Article II and not looking at the rest of the Constitution or the laws passed concerning citizenship.
I understand that a lot of people *want* him to be Indonesian, but for a child born in Hawaii to a Kenyan father this wouldn’t be possible. That’s the plain and simple fact. The father is not Indonesian, there is no Indonesian nationality.
_________________________________
Nationality is not the issue here, it is citizenship. If Lolo Soetoro adopted little Barry, he would be an Indonesian citizen. Get it?
just to clarify, it absolutely would not be normal nor necessary to have a child adopted in order to raise him in Indonesia
________________________________
I believe that Judah Benjamin has covered all of this,..have you read his articles? He said it would have been expensive to have enrolled little Barry in school if he was not a citizen?
Anyone hear why both Michelle and Barack did not renew their attorney’s license.?
Neither one of them haven been attornies since 2001 according to Corsi’s book.
SolarPowered // August 14, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Thank you.
It is obviously easier to institute a civil proceeding. You don’t have to get the State involved. And you control the proceeding to a larger extent.
Politically speaking a civil case instituted by a responsible lawyer will be news fit to print.
I don’t know enough to argue against your position, which seems to be a reasonable one.
God Bless You, too, Nan!
truthmonger~
You said, “I do hope it’s not based solely on a 45-year-old school form from Indonesia, which for all we know now could have been falsified to grease the school wheels. Surely we have a more credible source?”
You make an excellent point.
This old document is about the only documentation we have on “Obama”.
We do not have his records from Occidental.
We don not have any records from Columbia.
We do not have his thesis.
We do not have Harvard records.
We do not have his medical records.
We do not have any article he published for the Harvard Law Review as its president.
We have no scholarly article written while at University of Chicago.
We do not have his Selective Service record.
We do not have an original Birth record.
We do not have a signed embossed paper Certification of Live Birth.
We do not have his State Senate Papers.
We have no list of his law clients.
We do not have his State Senate Schedule book.
You are right. All we have is an official entry from his school stating that he was an Indonesian citizen and Muslim.
That’s all we have.
Would you like to see some of those other documents?
ellie,
right on! right on!
truthmonger,
How about this.
Obama has too many skeletons in his closet!
PUMA’s are digging in the crawl space and finding more skeletons.
Skeletons…. Skeletons….Skeletons!
Obama is a habitual liar who can’t distinquish what is fact or fiction. Just read his auto-biographies.
Your man is flawed.
Why don’t he quit this POTUS nonsense while he is “ahead” and give it the nomination to Hillary! We will find his true Identity one way or another.
Obama is a international man of action why don’t he work for the United Nations.
Just keep Obama out of our hair and he will do no harm to our country!
Sincerely,
Alice Palmer
purplechiten,
Lol…glad someone else is paying attention. Please gal and guys, check 14th Ammendment.
Nan, the truth is murders motivated by frustration over the cultural insanity and political corruptions of any era arise not from hate, but from folks like you who leave the doors open to the wild and the evil out of a foolish sense of “love” and indulgence. Sort of like that bear-lover in Alaska a few years ago. He talked to the bears, no weapon, he’d approach them bit by bit until they accepted his presence. Peace to all. The peaceable kingdom. He was very comfortable with them and they with him. He talked his girlfriend into coming to live with him. They communed with the bears for months.
One day the bears ate them. Just took a few seconds.
A person just like you, maybe. All love and all against “hate”. Don’t hate wild animals said this expert. And he lived by his understanding, enjoying many peaceful hours with the wild.
Then something happened.
To the rest of us, what happened was predictable.
Yet what if he was our leader, or she our sister and either insisted us to join to their folly — by their charm and by our own desire not to abandon them.
It’s a frustrating thing. Please improve your behavior and start having some respect and honest love for us, dear Nan.
Yeah again to Elliewyatt !!!!-Now that’s the way to sum it up !!!– exactly
[...] http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/breaking-photo-documents-barry-soetoro-indonesian/#more-... [...]
I still think that Obama should show his birth certificate and certificate of live birth.
I’ve been reading comments on other websites and there are people that have made excuses for him. He is a grown man. He’s proven how well he has learned the Chicago political arena.
Oh, he was afraid to let people know he’s adopted. That he has a different name. He comes from a one parent household. His father left so he has abandonment issues, etc.
Sooooo, if he’s that messed up why would anyone want him as president. He is an adult that graduated from Harvard and yet he gives up his attorney’s license.
Perhaps lying about not having any other names (such as Soetoro) had something to do with it, I can only guess his possible motivation.
He will probably get away with it, but it’s a big mistake to have a con man like Obama, who is totally unqualified, running as a presidential candidate when he is:
1. Lying on legal documents;
2..Not disclosing any other names he used;
3. Encouraging people to “fight the smears” and they do by harassing, trying to humiliate, hacking websites who publish articles about him that make him look bad, regardless if it’s true, And , threaten physical harm and even send out death threats towards other individuals;
3. Cheating on caucas voting , enlisting people to place votes for him under the name of dead people;
4. His past and present associations, what great friends he has;
5. TUCC and Wright, listening to 20 years of hateful and racist messages, but he doesn’t remember what he said.;
6. Ayers, Dohm (sp?) Farrahkan;
7. Endorcement by North Korea;
8. You Tube Video: 52 Seconds
(dismantels America’s secure borders);
9. Receiving foreign contributions;
10. Using his Senate position to maneuver a sweet deal on buying his house;
11. Wheeling and dealing with Rezko and his wife goes from approximately $100,000 to another position that pays her $300,000.
12. Not trustworthy, unpatriotic, corrupt, and believes his own lies.
The list is absolutely endless………………
Under English Law, (and I presume US), a man is not capable of giving evidence to the circumstances of his own birth (for rather obvious reasons). See Rex v Joyce (1945) when, despite this inconvenient fact, the clever Brits managed to hang a natural-born American citizen for treason against the King of England…
So some of the comments that Obama has “lied” about his antecedents are therefore politically-inspired hyperbolae.
The whole case seems to rest on the meaning of natural-born citizen. It appears the thesis is that Obama probably was a natural-born citizen at the time of his birth, but somehow lost this retroactively due to a surmised later “adoption.” However, you provide neither proof of the adoption, nor of its assumed retroactive effect on his natural-born status. Without either it seems the constitutional repercussions must remain in the domain of entertaining speculation.
I am surprised that in the “land of the free” vital records are not openly accessible. In the UK, I can walk into the local library, fill out a form (or even do it online or by phone), pay $14, and within a week I will receive the birth or marriage certificate of the Queen of England, or of any of her subjects born, married or deceased within her realm since 1837….
SHV, the U.S.Code requirements to be a “citizen of the United States at birth” that you posted are interesting, but not particularly probative.
Firstly, statutes do *not* modify the Constitution, so it really doesn’t matter what any law defines “natural born” to be; all that matters is what the term can be discerned to have meant to the Framers when they wrote the Constitution.
Secondly, the statute you reference does *not* in any case define who is a “natural-born” citizen; rather, if defines who is a citizen at birth. Those are two different things. There has been no statute that addresses the definition of “natural born” since around 1799, when a statute passed then superseded an earlier one that had mentioned the term. (And in any case, such a statute would not override the Constitution.)
To understand what the term “natural born” means in the Constitution, you first have to look at case law to determine if the courts have ruled on what it means. As far as I know, there is essentially no case law that relates to the “natural born” provision in Article II. After that, you look to the writings of the Framers to see how they understood the term, to the laws of the colonies, and to English law, to see what meaning they assigned to the term.
As it turns out, the term “natural born” has a long history in English law. Judah Benjamin has addressed this subject at length. And actual, *de facto* dual citizenship disqualifies one from being considered a “natural-born” citizen. You’re still a citizen, but you don’t qualify as “natural born.”
As you suggest, it will take a Supreme Court ruling to fully determine what the term means, because of the lack of existing U.S. case law on the subject.
The funny thing is, if Obama had thrown Mama under the bus instead of Grandma, he could have spun it differently.
“My mother took me away from my beloved Hawaii at a young age and allowed my stepfather to put me in a school that taught me things that were opposite of my early Christian upbring. I was far too young for such an about face in every facet of my life and my mother should have recognized that and acted in my interests. But she was very young at the time and perhaps did not realize how confusing this would be for me.”
But the big O chose to revere Mama and cast grandma as the “typical white woman”. And he is now stuck with what the record says.
Even funnier…I fully expect that the reason he spun it the way that he did was because of us gun loving bible totting rubes. After all, we would have never been able to digest such a complicated concept as his early Islamic schooling. We after all, are bigots who cannot comprehend a culture other than our own. Of course, we would all be too stupid to peel back the layers of the truth as well.
Ironic, ain’t it. Even a lifelong Republican like me hopes that Hillary wipes the floor with him at the convention. She earned her shot. The big O did not.
Busy day. BTW, TD – great work!
Joe,
“This discussion about what kind of pen was used to write on the page is pointless unless…”
The Obamamites who never seen a non-computerized documents might think it came from 1760’s.
Got to point out that fact that we had to write things by hand.
Penmanship was still prized in the 1960’s.
Have a good day!
Can anyone explain to me why it would be beyond understandable for Obama mom and stepfather to fill out paperwork with the Sotoero last name to stop people from asking questions. It in no way means he was ever legaly adopted or changed his name.
Obama has never covered up that he lived in Indonesia.
None of this means his legal name was ever anything but Barack Obama.
Wouldn’t Barack want to cover up the name Husein mare than Sotoero.
Get the aluminum foil of your heads.
Im sure children in the 70’s without fathers were not exactly looked upon favorably in Indonesia or even USA for that matter
I was reading another blog and a writer commented on something Rush Limbaugh said today. (I don’t listen to him …. don’t shoot the messenger)
Read the last part of the quote. This could get really fun really quick. Perhaps Rush knows that sh*t is about to hit the fan on BO.
Rush Limbaugh:8/14/08 (related to how the MSM did not report on the Edwards affair)
“And in the process, what do they not want to know about Obama? And I’ll guarantee you, they don’t want to know because then they would have to report it. That’s why he tried to soft-pedal Jeremiah Wright, soft-pedal all this, because they don’t want to know it, because they don’t want to write it. They want to write a myth. They want to promulgate a legend and a myth about Obama. You would think now, if there are a number of them like Walter Shapiro, they’d say, “Gee, did I really blow this!” do you think they’ll have the intelligence to ask themselves they might be making the same mistake with Obama? Not that he’s having an affair. I don’t mean that. But I guarantee you this guy is not who they think and hope he is, in terms of qualifications. ”
Go Texas Darlin….Go!!!
rod crosby said:I am surprised that in the “land of the free” vital records are not openly accessible. In the UK, I can walk into the local library, fill out a form (or even do it online or by phone), pay $14, and within a week I will receive the birth or marriage certificate of the Queen of England, or of any of her subjects born, married or deceased within her realm since 1837….
Great Rob, why don’t you hustle right down there and see if you can get a birth certificate on Barack Obama born in Canada (Since Canada was under the British Crown) as we suspect he could have been. If you get it, I’ll send you the $14.
Obamanots, let’s be clear, the minute I see Zbigniew Kazimierz Brzezinski connected with a candidate I start looking for the rest of the slim. That is why I’m here!
This made me chuckle:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dissecting-obamas-school-record/
“tell you Gretchen I ain’t vote for this dude, too many thistles on his Armani.”
misanthropicus:
se, drop by drop the water in the glass overflows, one too many straws breaks the camel’s back. True, there is some preaching for the converted ones in this situation, but there is also DAMAGE and DEMORALIZATION on the other side. Also, there is something called CREDIBILITY – you hear of one problem, then about another one, then… tell you Gretchen I ain’t vote for this dude, too many thistles on his Armani.
Dent by dent, ding by ding – trust me, it works.
Aug 14, 2008 – 6:05 pm
Solar Powered,
Instead of going on what we already know, sometimes we have to actually search for that which we do not already know.
Check this one out:
Montana v. Kennedy, 366 U.S. 308 (1961): A person born in 1906, whose mother was a native-born citizen of the United States and whose father was a foreign citizen, who was born overseas and then moved to the United States, was not a citizen of the United States by birth.
oh, and although statutes do not modify the Constitution, AMMENDMENTS do, check out the 14th, it’s a very nice one.
” SolarPowered // August 14, 2008 at 8:53 pm ”
I totally agree..The drafters of the constitution didn’t know what it meant and the First Continental Congress tried to “fix” it but as you point out Statutes don’t trump the Constitution. There just needs to be a case and someone with standing to take it to court. George Romney would have been a good test case.
nan, don’t drag arkansas in to this!!!! Bill Gwatney was a great guy and a Hillary supporter!!! There are alot of democrats who question whether obama is qualified!!!! This guy was a nutcase who was wanting to commit sucide by cop and take out someone famous. But, it didn’t have anything to do whether Obama is qualified.
We have to explode this into the press. CNN had the faith minister on who said Obama is not a muslim. Hello…but he was and held Indonesian citizenship. He hooked up with Rev Wright who concentrated on Islamic Studies at Howard U, not Christianity and who has synthesized Christianity and an odious brand of Islam.
Now that Hillary will be in nomination…delegates can change their minds if they are aware of this.
If Obama was not born on US soil (in Hawaii) he is NOT a natural born citizen. PERIOD.
If one parent is a US citizen, and the other is not, and the parents are married, then the current law says the child is a US citizen if the American parent was physically present in the US for one or more periods of time totalling at least five years, at some time or times in his or her life prior to (but not necessarily immediately prior to) the child’s birth. Additionally, at least two years out the required five years of physical presence must have taken place after the parent’s 14th birthday; thus, for example, a parent who was born and grew up in the US, but who left before reaching age 16 and never returned, doesn’t meet the requirement.
Prior to 14 November 1986, the physical presence requirement in this case was ten years (instead of five) — including five years (instead of two) spent after the parent’s 14th birthday. The requirement was reduced in 1986, but the change did not retroactively make US citizenship available to people born previously who did not meet the old requirement. (Congress’s intent not to make this change retroactive was affirmed in 1988 with the passage of Public Law 100-525, § 8(d), 102 Stat. 2619).
the reason for my previous statement is that his mother did not meet the requirements prior to 1986. She wasn’t old enough to have been in the US for 5 years after her 14th birthday.
It still hinges on the Birth Certificate and now has another hinge on whether he was adopted or not.
He can also be impeached due to lying on his Bar papers about previous names regardless of adoption or not. He went by that name, used it on legal documents (school records) and therefore, it is an alias whether he was adopted or not
“If Obama was not born on US soil (in Hawaii) he is NOT a natural born citizen. PERIOD.”
Is US soil determined only by statehood or are there other criteria? So far, all Presidents have been born in States, so the precedent is Statehood..but who knows.
Y’all, Obama is actually an alien. He is a Ferengi!
Here is a defination of a Ferengi: They and their culture are characterized by a mercantile obsession with profit and trade and their constant efforts to swindle people into bad deals. They are also known for their business acumen and for exploiting females.
Like most of their culture, their religion is also based on principles of capitalism: they offer prayers and monetary offerings to a Blessed Exchequer in hopes of entering the Divine Treasury upon death, and fear an afterlife spent in the Vault of Eternal Destitution.
Considering British asset Sore’s puppet Obama, art reflects reality!
Oh, the irony of an Obama supporter accusing someone else of hate. Just one look at a thread at Democratic Underground that mentions Hillary will show all the hate you can imagine.
Mountain Sage
“If Obama was not born on US soil (in Hawaii) he is NOT a natural born citizen. PERIOD.”
Please, we know that is NOT even an approximation of the law…
There is nothing to stop a man born, for instance, in Liverpool, England from becoming president of the US, provided certain other conditions were met… the citizenship of his parents, their marital status, length and proximity of their US residence, etc, etc….
Grant -
No he wants the O H B part – that is how he self identifies – without that there is no brand Barack.
An Observer -
Yes isn’t Mr. Brezez. a piece of work – most of the troubles over the decades have his signature all over them.
doris
add and campaigning for Odinga in Kenya –
Maybe the Soetoro stuff he is not comfortable with but I think the Key to him is the very insecure half black guy who has to prove his powerful or who.
From his teen to present he has chosen to associate with radicals and crooks – says it all – even chose the female mirror image of himself (Michelle) …… “Barack will not let you”…..
they are so SOCIALIST and RACIST.
Until Obama reveals his BC and explains in detail how he managed to change his name back when he returned to the U.S., this school register is the only written document available that gives us an inkling as to what his citizenship and religion was during those years in Indonesia. A physician friend of mine used to tell me that one of the things that he learned in risk management courses was that unless whatever he did to a patient was written down, it did not happen. In a malpractice case, for example, if the medical record did not show what he claimed to have done for a patient, then he didn’t do it. It is too bad that Lolo Soetoro and Ann Dunham aren’t around to tell us all what Obama’s true status was, so we have to make do with a 30 year old school register that says quite plainly that his citizenship was Indonesian, his legal name was Barry Soetoro and his religion was Islam.
She wasn’t old enough to have been in the US for 5 years after her 14th birthday.
That law was later modifed to state “2 years” and it was made retroactive — so Obama is okay (at least in that regard)
Tony,
Actually, it’s a 40 year old document, but I agree that until other written documents surface that prove otherwise, we have to accept it at it’s face value.
Spread the word the old fashion way — bumper stickers.
WOW, what a DAY!!!
shew, it was very hectic and an absolute rollercoaster!
The MSM is now reporting Hillary will be in nomination. They should catch on to this story in a couple of weeks.
For anyone who is exhausted, I put up some pics on my blog of “Bush the Sequel” = bambi-soetoro-whoever the hell he is. Hope you get a chuckle
http://purplechiten.wordpress.com
How about a T shirt and bumper sticker that says:
Elect an Indonesian for POTUS!
Why has the photo of the school document been removed? It says ” this image or video has been moved or deleted” Photobucket.
I have been living in Indonesia for 15 years. Let me explain a little about how Obama would have come to be listed as an Indonesian and a Muslim on his school registration form.
Until a few years ago, foreign children were not allowed to attend Indonesian schools (whether public or private), and had to go to international schools which are very expensive. Or they were sent to be educated in Singapore or their home country.
I’m pretty sure that this is why Obama’s parents wanted him listed as an Indonesian citizen. This does NOT mean that he was ever an Indonesian citizen, or that he was adopted by his stepfather.
In Indonesia, people routinely list false information in official documents, and they see nothing wrong with doing so. You just bribe an official to write whatever you want written, simple as that. For a school document, Obama’s parents most probably did not even need to bribe anyone.
Many people here have several sets of identity cards under different names. Yes, this is against the law, but nobody has ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for this. There is no central
civil register here, so nobody can really prove who anyone is anyway. Besides that, Indonesians always ignore laws that are
inconvenient or cumbersome.
So, in Indonesia, there would have been no problem giving Obama’s name as Barry Soetoro rather than Barry Obama.
Regarding his listing as a Muslim in this document, Obama’s home and school were in a high-class central Jakarta district called Menteng, which used to be almost exclusively Muslim. In fact, Chinese-Indonesians (most of whom are Christians) were at one time not even allowed to buy property there.
This was also only a couple of years after the political upheaval of the mid-sixties when reportedy between 500,000 and 1 million
Chinese-Indonesians (mostly Christians) and others were massacred, the economy was in shreds and the country descended into chaos. It might not have been such a good time to declare yourself a Christian, especially if you were living in that part of town.
Even though this was actually a Catholic school, it makes sense that Obama’s parents might have wanted him listed as a Muslim so that he would fit in better with his friends, many of whom would have been the children of Muslim generals, politicians and intellectuals.
I must point out that the Indonesian brand of Islam is far more moderate and tolerant than Islam in other Muslim countries. Also, at the time Obama lived in Indonesia, the government and military actively discouraged public displays of any religion (including Islam), which they saw as a threat to their authority. There were violent crackdowns on emerging Islamic
organisations from time to time throughout the 1960s, 70s and 80s.
Yes, we have a small number of Islamic extremists here, but the overwhelming majority of Indonesians hate them as much as the West does.
One other thing: Indonesians tend to be very proud of the fact that Obama spent four years here when he was a child, and really want him to win the race. They know that he is not a Muslim, but they want the world to know that he lived here among Muslims and believe that this gives him a good understanding of how to deal with the non-Western world.
So, to sum up, this school registration form is not an official document in the Western or US sense, and does not “prove” anything. If this were a US document it would be a different
matter, but everything works differently in Indonesia. People here write whatever is convenient, or whatever they feel like at the time even in official government documents.
He never held Indonesian citizenship, nor was he ever a Muslim – it’s just what was written for the sake of convenience!
To Obama’s Indonesian stepfather, this would just have been the “right” information to write down at this time, but that does not mean that he believed it was “correct”.
I hope that this clears up some of the misconceptions about Barack Obama’s citizenship and religion!
It would be great if other Indonesian documents such as records from his other school are found that reiterate and reinforce what’s in this school register. That would make it even harder for Soetoro’s followers and his lackeys in the MSM to ignore.
PurpleChiten: Actually, I looked up the law under findlaw.com and it stated the law that was in effect from 1952 through 1986 was: If one parent was born in the U.S. and other parent was foreign born then the child WOULD NOT automatically be a U.S. citizen. The mother would have had to live in the U.S. for ten years, five years which were after the age of 16 (Sixteen) not 14. I don’t know how old his mother was when she had the toad but I’ve heard 16 years old. That means the toad would not have become a U.S. citizen until his mother turned 21. That law was changed in 1986 and I don’t know what it is now and if it applies retroactively to someone born in 1961?????
Since I am not permitted to see “Obama’s” records from Occidental College or records from Columbia University or records from Harvard Law School or his thesis or his Illinois Bar application or his Selective Service registration or articles published as President of Harvard Law Review or articles published as a Chicago University lecturer or his medical records or his Illinois state senate papers or his state senate schedule or his law client list or his original complete birth certificate or a signed paper copy of his Certification of Live Birth, I thought I’d look up “Obama’s” stellar “civil rights law”law career.
He actually worked full time for two whole years as an attorney before running for State office, and worked a total of four years as a full time lawyer (his first book about himself came out after working as an attorney for 2 years).
Here is a bit of what I found:
“Obama defended a nonprofit corporation that owns low-income housing projects against a lawsuit in which a man alleged that he slipped and fell because of poor maintenance. Obama got the suit dismissed.
In 1994, Obama appeared in Cook County court on behalf of Woodlawn Preservation & Investment Corp., defending it against a suit by the city, which alleged that the company failed to provide heat for low-income tenants on the South Side during the winter.
In another case, Obama appeared on behalf of a nonprofit corporation that provided healthcare for poor people. A woman who claimed income of less than $8,000 a year had sued Obama’s client to obtain a $336 payment for baby-sitting services; Obama’s client paid up, and the case was settled.
Obama took what Miner called the “laboring oar” on some cases. He took the lead arguing a 1994 case before the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals on behalf of a securities trader who had been improperly fired. The court ruled for his client.”
Was that Woodlawn case the one when Rezco let the tenants sit in sub-freezing temperatures while he claimed poverty and at the same moment writing a check to “Obama’s” campaign?
The 14th Amendment section 1 states, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
I’m just curious as to why Obama and his supporters keep bringing this up instead of Article II of the constitution as an eligibility criterion. Are they implying that he is a naturalized citizen?
What happened to the document? It is no longer viewable?
Is someone/thing attempting to silence your voice?
Keep fighting for the truth TD. You are not alone.
Photobucket phail!!!
Gads… here is a description of Obama/Soetoro’s first two of his four full-time years as an attorney:
“He was doing the work that any first-year or second-year associate would do,” Miner said. “In litigation, he was doing basic research and writing memos… . In the first couple years he would play a very minor role. He wouldn’t know [much], so he would take the lead from whoever was supervising his work.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/06/nation/na-obamalegal6
Why did Obama/Soetoro even bother to go to Harvard Law School, yet not even bother to paractice law full time but four years?
“People who knew Obama in the early 1990s said he made it clear that he aspired to run for public office. For that, the firm, now called Miner, Barnhill & Gallard, was a good place to start. “
This is part of an article in the Harold Tribune
Barack Obama’s Search for Faith
By Jodi Kantor
Published April 30, 2007
“My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim,” said Maya Soetoro-Ng, Mr. Obama’s younger half sister. But Mr. Obama attended a Catholic school and then a Muslim public school where the religious education was cursory. When he was 10, he returned to his birthplace of Hawaii to live with his grandparents and attended a preparatory school with a Christian affiliation but little religious instruction. “
choose not to spend any money/time campaigning there, but not to have your name on the ballot? Surely 10 votes is better than none. So, why not put it on the ballot? Perhaps Michigan required a certified copy of birth, which the Obots couldn’t produce, or didn’t want to while the primary was still in play…. any one from Michigan out there?
Did any one check out the Michigan election laws? I thought it strange at the time that Barry didn’t even have his name (which name?) on the ballot. He may choose not to spend any money/time campaigning there, but not to have your name on the ballot? Surely 10 votes is better than none. So, why not put it on the ballot? Perhaps Michigan required a certified copy of birth, which the Obots couldn’t produce, or didn’t want to while the primary was still in play…. any one from Michigan out there?
To INDY on Aug. 14-08 at 5:37 pm,
I AGREE. We should run an add in a major newspaper ASAP with the following information:
The”Elegibility challenge state by state: act II” as outlined by
“DrKate” today at NoQuarter.
The COPY of Obama’s Indonesian school registration
form as posted above.
The main idea of ARTICLE II of the Constitution in bold letters:
UNDIVIDED ALLEGIANCE TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
A copy of the fake birth certificate.
A list of his papers we have not seen yet: the Original Birth Certificate, his real COLB, his Illinois senate records, his tax returns, his thesis, etc.
The HEADING of the add could say something like
CALLING OUT the Secretaries of State (name of each state and the name of the Secretary of
State) to CONFIRM elegibility
of Barack Obama/Barry Soetoro
to run for POTUS.
This kind of add would very likely not be ignored by the MSM
and the general public.
If PUMAPAC or this blog sets up
an account to run this add soon, I’ll shell out the first $100.00 for it. We don’t have much time to wait!
Uh-oh, TD
Looks like David Axelrod may have gotten to the Photobucket guys. They have done something to the AP photo on your site and a bunch of others. When the page comes up it says “This image or video has been moved or deleted” Photobucket
I hope someone saved it as a file somewhere. This “scrubbing” of all negative things Obama from the internet is getting very annoying. The good news is that his past is SO shady and his associations are SO questionable that “scrubbing” it all will be impossible! They can try but, as ole Tennesse Ernie Ford used to say, “They’ll be busier than a one-armed paper hanger!”
Rod sweetie, the problem is, those other circumstances haven’t been met. UNLESS obama was born IN Hawaii, then he is NOT a natural born citizen. This has to do with HIS case, not a case in general. His mother wasn’t old enough to give him citizenship and his father didn’t have US citizenship to give to him. So, unless he was born in Hawaii (or other US territory) to his US citizen mother, he is not a US citizen. This is taking into account the applicable laws as have been previously posted, his mother’s status, his fathers status, the US Constitution, both Article II and the 14th Ammendment, Laws active at that time and any that had retroactivity and case precedents that show the closest possible similar circumstance all saying that he would not be considered a natural born citizen.
You don’t have to believe it, but it is true and it will hold up in court if it comes to that, and I’m sure the prosecutor that handles it will do his homework, just as I have done and look for any applicable law or precedent in addition to the Constitutional requirements.
You are speaking merely on what you think the law should be. I actually researched them, cross referenced and dug as deep as it went to stand behind my statement that unless Barack Obama was born on US soil, he is not a US citizen. If he WAS born on US soil, then there isn’t an issue until he may or may not have changed to Indonesian citizenship when adopted by Lolo Soetoro.
If this doesn’t fully answer your questions, then you are reading it closely enough.
Have a good day.
Ugggg, I can’t believe they scrubbed the photo!!!
What am I saying, of course I believe it.
I saved a copy if you need it. You can snag it from my blog or I can email it to you.
Guess where Obama headed right after leaving Hawaii… Illinois. I wonder if he has his new COLB in hand and wants to straighten things out in Illinois now. Someone needs to follow him and his campaign workers around.
Nan, thanks for the interesting article about religious freedom and Islam in the west. Perhaps you could also enlighten us as to what advice the Koran gives for dealing with apostates.
Mitchell Langbert is tightening the noose. See his Aug 15th, 2008 posts to Congressman and IRS,
http://mitchell-langbert.blogspot.com/2008/08/letter-to-congressman-maurice-hinchey.html
http://mitchell-langbert.blogspot.com/2008/08/letter-to-irs-and-mr-douglas-shulman.html
They both make interesting reading and will help.
Jerome Corsi on Fox News right now, stating that Obama’s COLB on his website is a photoshopped copy! He is calling on Obama to release his REAL birth certificate.
He also said that DailyKos posted his home address and phone number and he and his family are receiving death threats from Obama supporters.
Fox & Friends at 5:25am pdt had Corsi on, and he mentioned the Internet ruckus over the copy of the certification of the birth certificate on the Fight the Smears site. He called it a forgery, based on what he’s read. The interviewer did a double-take at that, saying that it must be Hawaii’s duplication of information on the birth certificate, but Corsi repeated that, in his mind, it is a forgery and that Obama’s campaign refuses to issue a copy of the actual certificate.
While I’m not convinced that it’s a forgery I think the missing number is odd, though the odd border might be explainable but is still hard to explain. However, Corsi;s statement that it is a forgery was rather firm. It should draw interest. I see the alleged AP photo has been taken off photobucket.
Wow. I guess Jerome Corsi reads this site because just five minutes ago he said to Mike Doocy on Fox and Friends that the birth certificate on Obama’s website is a fake. Doocy says, wait a minute, the bc is a fake? Corsi says yes. Doocy says well isn’t it just a photocopy? And Corsi says it’s been Photoshopped and altered. Wow. If only other networks can now feel justified in picking up the story.
It started when Doocy said how Obama said Corsi didn’t have his correct marriage date. Corsi said, well that’s the big problem with Obama, it would help if he would release basic documents, we don’t even have his real bc, Obama needs to show it.
Jerome Corsi was just on FOX- he brought up the COLB and said it’s fake.
Photobucket has pulled the pic. Did you happen to keep a copy to post directly rather than by link?
OMG…OBAMA NATION AUTHOR JEROME CORSI, COMMENTING ON FOX ON BO’S 40-PAGE RESPONSE TO HIS BOOK, JUST BUSTED BO FOR REFUSING TO PRODUCE A BONA FIDE BC…
On FOX, Dr. Corsi is being interviewed about BO’s 40-page rebuttal to his book. The interviewer said, BO accuses you of messing up the facts. Here’s Dr. Corsi’s reply.
“They say I got an incorrect date of Senator Obama’s marriage. Well, what would be really helpful is if Senator Obama would release primary documents like his birth certificate. The campaign has a false fake bc posted on his web site. How is anybody really supposed to piece together…”
Interviewer: What do you mean they have a false bc?
“The original bc for Obama has never been released and the campaign refuses to release it.”
Interviewer: Well, couldn’t it be just a state of Hawaii produced duplicate?
“No, it’s a… there’s been a good analysis of it on the internet and it’s been shown to have water marks from Photoshop… it’s a fake document that’s on the web site right now and the original bc the campaign refuses to produce.”
Wake up folks. The document photo “has gone missing”!!! (From a sympathetic republican.) Love what you guys are doing. Are you enjoying having all this stuff covered and blacked out up by the mainsteam media?? Welcome to our world!
Sweet job!
http://webescape.wordpress.com/
Sorry. “Covered up and blacked out”. I believe Hillary’s folks are on the same page you guys are (maybe secretly helping you here)….She just got her roll call vote. Now it’s time to hit the big time with some even bigger story or document then this one ( or the forgery analysis thing). The passport? Don’t know if Hillary’s got the balls to make her move here now – or whether she’s willing to wait 4 years. I think she’ll move now.
How can people expect documents that show his name being changed back to Obama when they themselves don’t produce the documents that prove his name was ever changed (Hint: this document does not actually prove that his name was ever legally changed).
It also does not prove that he was ever actually Muslim.
I can only sit here and laugh when I read this. “WE NEED TO EXPLODE THIS TO THE MEDIA!”
Guess what? It won’t work because this informal document is a non-story.
The former Coordinator of Veterans for Kerry has written a response to John Kerry’s request for help in trying to debunk Corsi’s book about Obama.
Here is the former Veteran/Coordinator’s response to John Kerry:
““Senator: The bigger problem in this campaign of lies is that it is not only the Right Wing doing the lying… and cheating… and disenfranchising of the American voters. The DNC itself, under the leadership of Howard Dean and with the help of such people as Nancy Pelosi, Donna Brazile and yourself is perpetuating a fraud on the American people. The Democratic Party has radically departed from its own Charter. It has “decided” who our candidate should be – arbitrarily and ignoring the will of We the People — and then called for Party Unity. Look at the televised Rules Committee meeting. Look at the grass-roots reports about the Caucuses. Look at the Obama waffling that started as soon as he became the ‘heir apparent’. Look at the racism and misogyny expressed by the Obama campaign. And you, John Kerry… I proudly displayed a picture of you and me taken at the Medford, OR, airport in 2004. I was a member of the Veterans for Kerry delegation who met you there, I fought as hard as anyone to defuse the lies of the Swifties. I, with the other VFKs, was frustrated and angry over the “high road” tactics of the DNC — a path that led directly to your defeat. That picture has been removed from my wall. You have joined “them” with your support of an ill-vetted empty suit of a Presidential nominee, done at a time when it would hurt Hillary the most. To say that I am disappointed in you as a former candidate and as a human being is an understatement. We now know why Senator Edwards endorsed Obama. Why did you?
Sincerely,
Kirk Taylor, Former Coordinator, Veterans for Kerry, Josephine County, OR “
The whole article is a good one, written by Mr. Taylor’s wife. It’s great to know there are so many Dems AGAINST Obama!
http://www.lynettelong.com/
Don’t be surprised if a fresh new COLB pops up with a seal and the name Obama. I’m sure it will have a June 2007 date stamp too.
It will be whipped out, shown to a reporter (maybe FOX?).
The race-card will be played; anyone who questionted the ONE will be called racist and a bigot.
Obama has friends in Hawaii, lest you all forget.
The gathering of the defenders of Hussein is
awesome to behold. Some guy named “strata”
told me that I had lost all credibility.
There is a powerful movement that would elect
Hussein despite anything.
Let me just take a different tack from pixel wars.
I don’t know if Techdude was qualified or not.
I suspected the COLB to be a fake before I ever
heard of Techdude or strata. There are a lot of ways
to gather evidence, and a voting decision will not
use the same rules as a court of law.
There’s this guy, A.E. Rawls, a scientist who runs
a blog called errortheory (dot blogspot dot com)
and mostly he writes about the Flight 93 memorial
that is actually going to turn out to be a terrorist
mosque, or about the fake global warming thing.
His articles are impeccably referenced. On July 15
he saw that New Yorker “satire” cover cartoon of
Obama in the WH and summarized the evidence
available to describe what he called the maximum
probability Obama. In other words, there is not
enough certain evidence out there to prove in
a court of law beyond any reasonable doubt our
thought about Obama, according to Mr. Rawls,
but there is a maximum probability of the
description of Obama.
He concludes, based not on Techdude or Polarik
or on Benjamin, that Obama is a secret Muslim.
Even strata left that article alone.
You might want to check it out. Scroll down to
July 15.
To Amazonia- aug 15 – 3;20 am
Your ideas for running an ad about the challenge and our facts, photo is excellent. I hope someone has the ability to do this or contact the PUMAs, etc who will. I am sure we all can fund it.
Also we need to inform Corsi of our findings as he is out there in the media. Does anyone have a contact email address?
TD, you need to fix the image of the school doc.
Greensleeves
Your entire argument boils down to Lolo Soetoro lied or bribed someone in order to list false information in his stepson’s school registration yet you have no hard evidence that that was indeed the case other than conjecture about his motives. Until his stepson releases his birth certificate and other documents that prove otherwise, the school register still has to be accepted as hard evidence that he is indeed an Indonesian citizen and a Muslim.
He scrambled and did what he could down in Hawaii. (Give grandma the talking points, tho maybe he also wanted the real story of his birth!)…Now he’s in Illinois trying to scrub the paper trail there.
But if he used an Indonesian passport travelling in his college days, I’d think scrubbing that evidence is impossible.
Even if he and the media get out of this jam, the jig is pretty much up for this guy from here to the election. There’s just too much history that’s gonna come out, and an electorate that will be slowly waking up to the fact that nobody knows nothin’ about this guy…and what details they’ll finally be learning sure ain’t gonna look good!
Investigating this guy for the first time over the last few days has been an astonishing eye-opener for me. I clearly see who and what he has been and still is;and even putting the most benign spin on it all, he’s toast.
Re: Correctionists
Update #4 made.
For someone who doesn’t know Indonesian, I think I did quite well getting a rough translation
Note: There is a disclaimer of only 85% accuracy due to the garbled text.
For fun I created composite image of Barack Obama to see if there is any resemblance to Lolo Soetero.
http://blog.changeandexperience.com/2008/08/meet-barry-soetero-photo-composite.html
On the cover of his book, it is stated that Jerome Corsi is a senior staff reporter for WorldNetDaily.com
Timely Reminder to All Officials Who May Read This.
From Wikipedia:
“Jerome Corsi was just on FOX- he brought up the COLB and said it’s fake.”
Well if that dealer of dishonesty says it’s fake, then by gosh, that must mean it’s fake!
I’ve seen a lot of pshops in my time and I can tell from these 2 pixels that it’s definitely pshopped!
New post at top of blog
Much thanks, again, to Matthew, for all his help!
Matthew : “For fun I created composite image of Barack Obama to see if there is any resemblance to Lolo Soetero.”
he definitely has his mother’s ears!
Mountain Sage
I’d advise staying off the topic of Swift Boating. Just as Obama has refused to release his original birth certificate Kerry refused to ever release his military records to the public. While he did sign “Standard Form 180″ he addressed this Request to the Department of the Navy which had only some of his records. See http://www.johnfkerrysucks.com/kerry_form_180.htm. Note the forms signed are directed only to the department of the Navy. Note also that the forms only authorized the release of his records to three reporters who were inclined to speak favorably of him and who all later declined to reproduce or make available to the public the records in question.
All Kerry has to do is sign SF 180 which may be found at http://www.archives.gov/research/order/standard-form-180.pdf
The 180 should be directed to the National Personnel Records Center, a branch of the National Archives. The NPRC is the only Government organization that has and can release a copy of his complete personnel file. Finally, after so releasing all of his records how about, here is something original, letting the public review them for themselves instead of sending them off to 3 cronnies who later refuse to let the public see for themselves.
Anyway, there is a detante of sorts here when it comes to Obama. I recognize a lot of Freepers posting on this site. And it appears that McCainers & Freepers working with Hillary Clintonites is a formidable combination but also inherently volatile. For that reason, I’d suggest staying away from old topics
cuz it shakes this mixture of left and right in a way which could result in such things as explosive outbursts, banning, troll labelling, fishhooking, small digit manipulation and the like.
I’ve come to respect your alls (Clintonites) research and analytical skills. I am always reviewing the boards over at Free Republic and it would appear they have noticed as much though they are inherently suspicious nonetheless.
Similarly, many here have commented on some good analysis provided by the right.
THE CUKOOED CCANDIDACY
May 12, 2008, New York Times:
As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.
Of course, as most Americans understand it, Senator Obama is not a Muslim. He chose to become a Christian, and indeed has written convincingly to explain how he arrived at his choice and how important his Christian faith is to him.
His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is “irtidad” or “ridda,” usually translated from the Arabic as “apostasy,” but with connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim’s family may choose to forgive).
With few exceptions, the jurists of all Sunni and Shiite schools prescribe execution for all adults who leave the faith not under duress; the recommended punishment is beheading at the hands of a cleric, although in recent years there have been both stonings and hangings.
. . . .
That an Obama presidency would cause such complications in our dealings with the Islamic world is not likely to be a major factor with American voters, and the implication is not that it should be. But of all the well-meaning desires projected on Senator Obama, the hope that he would decisively improve relations with the world’s Muslims is the least realistic.
Edward N. Luttwak, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, is the author of “Strategy: The Logic of War and Peace.”
Barack Obama II looks very much like his mother. Is there any proof that Obama sr. is his father? I have seen no marriage license. If they were married at the time, the question of paternity becomes moot, because the father would have responsibility for the child, even if someone else were the biological father. Again, is there any proof of paternity, like a marriage license?
FWIW The Hawaii State Archives which houses the records of the Lt. Gov. office, which is one of the ways someone would request a name change, did a seach for me using the name Barry Soetoro and found nothing. They said it’s possible the name change was done through the court system and would not show up with them.
John Mirse:
You have been seriously misinformed. Indonesia does not have Islamic Law, and never has! So, all your arguments about Obama’a stepfather breaking Islamic law and risking punishment for lying on a school registration form are totally invalid.
The whole point is that he did lie. Of course in the US, this would be a serious matter, but it is a perfectly normal thing to do in Indonesia, where documents literally aren’t worth the paper they
are written on.
Indonesians are actually not very strict Muslims at all, and tend to be surprisingly laid back about religion. Yes, there are a small number of extremists who commit terrorist atrocities every now and then and get a lot of attention. But there are religious extremists in every country, and they tend to get more airtime than everyone else combined.
When Obama lived in Indonesia, the country was just coming out of a huge economic crisis that was blamed on the Chinese-Indonesians, most of whom are Christians. Up to a million of
them were killed in the turmoil of the mid-sixties, and many more fled the country. Of those who remained, a large proportion “converted” to Islam on paper, i.e. they bribed an official to give them identity documents stating that they were Muslims. They continued to practice their Christian faith as before, however.
That would be why Obama’s stepfather did lie when he registered the child as a Muslim and as an Indonesian, and would not have see anything wrong with doing so because it is pretty normal to give false information in official documents in Indonesia. Under the circumstances of that era, he most probably though it best not to say that Barry was a Christian.
As for the “Indonesian citizenship”, firstly, a foreign child was not supposed to be attending an Indonesian school, even a Catholic school such as this one. In that era, if the stepfather had filled in the line that says “foreign origin” (3b) he would in effect have been saying that Barry was of Chinese origin, which was not a
wise thing to do (plus, anyone could see that it was not true). There are plenty of Indonesians from the east of the country who look a bit like young Barry did, though.
There is no reason to expect that the school would have asked for backup documents – to this day, I would not expect this. Even if they had asked for proof of citizenship, for instance, it would have been very easy to get around this.
As this was a Catholic school, and in that era, there would have been plenty of other kids who were really Christians, but were listed as Muslims. So, it would be reasonable to assume that the school knew perfectly well that Barry was not a “real” Muslim, and that it was not seen as a big deal. Basically, it was seen as OK to be a Christian as long as you did not say that you were.
This is still a typical Indonesian attitude towards all kinds of issues.
You are correct in saying that as a “Muslim” student, Barry would have studied Islam. But at that time, there was actually not that much religious instruction in schools – there is more now. Also, remember that this was a Catholic school! And that he was only a kid.
Yes, he would have had to go to the mosque every Friday lunchtime, but to most Indonesian Muslims this is more of a social event than a strict religious activity. I know many non-
Muslim Indonesians who go to the mosque with their Muslim friends – it’s a good excuse to take a long lunch break!
So, to address your remaining points in order:
4. Nobody would have been SUSPICIOUS that Barry was a Christian pretending to be a Muslim, because they would have known and accepted that he WAS a Christian pretending to be a Muslim.
5. Ditto, plus what Islamic officials are you talking about? Indonesia is not officially an Islamic country although most people are nominally Muslims, and it is not governed by Islamic law.
7. No, Indonesian Muslims DO NOT “take their Islam very seriously”. Again, Islamic law is not the law of the land. You have evidently confused Indonesia with certain other countries with large Muslim populations!
8. No basis for this argument
9. While there are actually Islamic courts that rule on such civil matters as divorce for Muslims, they have no formal legal standing and would not have been interested in the religious
status of a six year-old, or any of the other people whose documents showed the “wrong” religion. It was just not an issue.
10. He was not risking anything – this is complete nonsense
11, 12, 13, 14. Ditto – where on earth do you get this stuff from??
Joe:
…”the school register still has to be accepted as hard evidence that he is indeed an Indonesian citizen and a Muslim”
Please understand that in Indonesia, no document can be taken as evidence of anything. In business negotiaions, a person’s word is often seen as more reliable than a written contract.
Nobody here expects what is written on a document to be the truth – and this is just a school registration paper written on what looks like a student’s writing pad.
A couple of illustrations from my own recent experience:
– When you pay for something in Indonesia and ask for a receipt, you will be asked, “How much do you want the receipt to say?”.
- A few years ago before the last general election, a voter registration worker came to my door asking if I wanted to register to vote. I pointed out to him that I was a white foreigner and was not allowed to vote in an Indonesian election, but he insisted that it would be no problem.
I was about to send him away, but on a whim decided to fill out the form to see how far this would go. To my surprise, my voter card arrived in the mail a few weeks later. Of course I did not actually use it, but I now have an amusing story to tell and an official card to “prove” it. And he didn’t even ask me for a bribe!
Most of the world simply does not operate in the same way as the US. A lot of people are just getting worked up over nothing!
PETER RISBERGS: You’re idea is right about who the real father is. Photos of Dunham and the Kenyan show two people who are not tall. Now look at the height of Obama–well over 6 feet, since his wife said on TV she is 5′11′, and he is taller than she is. TALL PEOPLE HAVE TALL PARENTS–10th grade biology. Dunham was short. The Kenyan was stocky. What the hell is being pulled here????
Greensleeves
All your candidate has to do to clear up this little misunderstanding about his citizenship and his religion is to answer under oath the questions that Matthew Weaver has posed. Here they are again:
1. Are you now a U.S. citizen?
2. Have you ever held as a youth or adult, citizenship in another country?
3. Did you ever possess or travel using, at least in part, the passport of another country? (E.g., while in Indonesia, visiting Pakistan, Kenya)
4. Did you renounce any foreign citizenship, and when, and do you now hold solely U.S. citizenship today?
5. Can you confirm or deny your name change as a youth from Barack Hussein Obama II to Barry Soetoro when you were adopted by your step-father?
6. Did you legally reclaim your birth name? When and how?
7. Why did you not list your adopted name Barry Soetoro on any forms associated with your legal profession or others that ask for any other names you have ever used? Have you now or will you update these records?
8. And by the way, did you register with the U.S. Selective Service when you turned 18?
If he continues to refuse to answer or plead the Fifth Amendment, then we’ll just have to make our own conclusions based on the available physical evidence.
The “real” story behind all this minute examination on the web of the available and/or discovered documents on Barack Obama, which deserves to be “EXPLODED TO THE MAIN MEDIA,” is the logical question that flows from all that is revealed through the close review of the documents.
That question is and should be: CAN OBAMA, AS A JOB-SEEKER FOR A POSITION THAT REQUIRES THE HIGHEST SECURITY CLEARANCE, QUALIFY (UNDER, SAY, THE ESTABLISHED FBI GUIDELINES) FOR SUCH SECURITY CLEARANCE?? The uncovered research suggests that it is increasingly doubtful that Obama could qualify for the highest security clearance, given his reluctance to make full and open disclosure of all relevant documents that shed light on his unusual background — OF BEING BORN TO A FOREIGN FATHER AND RAISED, FOR AT LEAST FOUR YEARS, BY A FOREIGN STEPFATHER AND A MOTHER WHO MOST OF HER ALDULT LIFE CHOSE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY OTHER THAN THE USA AND, WHO FOR A PERIOD OF FOUR OR FIVE YEARS, PUBLICLY PROFESSED THEIR SON TO BE A FOREIGN CITIZEN — WHERE, MOREOVER, THE JOB-APPLICANT HAS A RECORD OF HAVING ESTABLISHED A CONTINUING AND ONGOING ASSOCIATION WITH THE FOREIGN MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY?
And, if the honest answer to that security clearance question is “NO”, should not the mainstream media be leading us in a public discussion of why a candidate for POTUS does not require a vetting equal to a highest security clearance the FBI can bestow?
Nothing like a redneck Texas racist that learns how to blog to keep things interesting.
Nothing like another Soetoro supporter high on Hopium to call other people racist.
Thoroughly debunked by an Obama opposer with an actual shred of self-respect:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dissecting-obamas-school-record/
I’d say “nice try” but that would be giving you way too much credit.
To Joe:
Do you really consider this from pajamamedia:
“Our attorney general advised us that Hawaii state law prohibits the Dept. of Health from verifying information contained in a vital record for anyone without a tangible interest. If Sen. Obama or his official representative requests a public verification that can be legally provided. Practically speaking, I believe that only the individual posting a document on a website can verify its authenticity.
The Hawaiian government can only release Obama’s birth records upon Obama’s request, and Obama won’t. Though they have twice been contacted by Pajamas Media regarding these allegations over the past month — and no doubt by other journalists and bloggers — the campaign has thus far refused to release the DOH from its obligation. This in no way means the document is inauthentic. It simply means that if Obama’s enemies are barking up the wrong proverbial tree, his campaign will not dissuade them from wasting time and resources.”
to have been barking up the wrong tree. Spin, spin, spin. It is not working. We do not want this man in the White House.
I personally do not care if a black, Asian, Italian American is elected POTUS. However, I care very much if an (insert minority here) who just happens to be an American and does not embrace and love our country is elected. I will fight it tooth and nail.
A long time ago I though Hillary was the worst thing that could happen. I have seen the light, I can live with her. I cannot live with “the one”.
I find it quite amazing how many people blow through here with basically the same talking points: “Obviously, Lolo Soetoro lied when he filled out the form. Everybody lied in Indonesia back then.”
First off, can any of you substantiate that Lolo Soetoro in fact “filled out the form”? It being in an official, bound book, I rather doubt that they let him write in it. Generally speaking, it is the clerks that work at the school that keep the official records, not parents who are attempting to register a child. And they also generally require official documents to prove things before they put them into the official records.
Nonetheless, you should easily be able to prove that you’re not making up your assertions out of whole cloth by simply showing a known sample of Lolo Soetoro’s handwriting, and showing that it is indeed his writing in the book.
We are given to understand that only Indonesian citizens were permitted to attend that school. Generally speaking, when there is a requirement such as that, merely stating that you meet the requirement won’t do to prove that you meet the requirement–you must provide some sort of specified, documentary evidence of meeting the requirement.
For example, the school district in which I live requires that the students at their schools be residents of the district. Just stating, “We live at 123 Main Street” won’t do to satisfy the requirement; you have to provide either your rental lease, or your property tax bill, showing that you actually line there. And if they later suspect that you’re cheating, they actually follow kids home, and drop in for spot checks at the purported address.
People take these kinds of requirements very seriously.
We also had to present birth certificates to prove age and name.
According to Judah Benjamin’s researches, Mr. Soetoro would have had to present the official Indonesian identity document for Barry in order to register him at the school. That is certainly likely.
While it is certainly true that in the universe of things that are possible there is place where there above photograph is a pack of lies created by Lolo Soetoro, it is also the case that said record is most likely an accurate copy of official identity documents. While it is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of anything, it is certainly strong evidence that not all is as “Barack Obama” says it is, and there is good reason to dig more deeply, and find more evidence, which may fall in either direction.
The quote from pajamas media is a big problem for Obama. This is a public relations disaster for Obama and is probably the reason Hillary’s name was put up for nomination. If he has nothing to hide then Obama’s stance is completely off base and incomprehensible. Unless he is able to show a legitimate COLB his campaign is over.
On the subject of unsealing records such as birth certificates and adoption records, I remind everyone that the way that Mr. Obama got into the Senate in the first place is that someone is his camp got the divorce records of his opponent, Jack Ryan, unsealed. We then all learned that he Mr. Ryan had tried to “share” Seven of Nine with other men at sex clubs, which resulted in the termination of his candidacy, opening the way for Mr. Obama to win the Senate seat he now holds.
Seems to me that turnabout is fair play…
Have fun, wingnuts. An Indonesian school registration form has no bearing on someone’s citizenship or religion. If anything, by listing Obama’s birthplace as Honolulu, it reinforces his claim to American citizenship. You people are really quite desperate.
To joe
Unfortunately for you, the Pajamas Media article “debunks” exactly nothing. It is another case of somebody axiomatically assuming that the US and Indonesian situations are the same when they are not. According to sources of the time the school register is based on a Legal Document. People say that this is no longer the case in Indonesia and I assume that they know what they are talking about but I am informed that in 1968 the chances of this Register being anything other than Legally correct were vanishingly small. Further, there is no actual evidence that Lolo Soetoro filled this form in. He provided the information on it. The information had to be based on an Official Legal Document called a KK.
Further, Pajamas Media is wrong about Name Changes on Official Forms, as well as being sexist. A man, who has changed his name for whatever reason, is required to fill that section in. It is, in fact, Pajamas Media who are willfully perverting what this section on the Illinois Register means.
observerman, the birthplace comment is a good point, but if you believe that to be true, then you have to believe that citizenship and religion listing were every bit as accurate and truthful.
Observer Man :
Although you are a malignant moron, you are right about one thing. We are dersperte …to save our country from a magalomaniac with a fascistic personality. Ad he’s so stupid that he doesn’t even know Russia is a veto-empowered permanent member of the U.N. Security Council. Now bugger off!
To Observer Man
Had you bothered to read anything that I have written you would realize that I have always stated that it is my opinion that the Senator was born in Hawaii and is an American Citizen by Birth. Since that has nothing whatsoever to do with my argument that he is not, or may not be, a Natural Born Citizen in terms of Article II of the Constitution of the United States of America you seem to be indulging in the “debunking” of an argument that exists largely in your own mind. That shows desperation, if anything does. Where somebody is born is only a part of being a Natural Born Citizen. Parentage, Circumstances of Birth and Allegiance are all material factors.
P.S. Should the Case ever reach the Supreme Court, I think it is reasonable to assume that Justice Clarence Thomas would be highly unlikely to rule in the Senator’s favor.
I think questions of Barack (Obama/Soetoro) not having been a U.S. Citizen at birth are raised as a red herring, to draw people off the track of the real citizenship issue. He was, by all available evidence, born in Hawaii, in the United States and, under the 14th Amendment, a U.S. Citizen at birth.
A lot of evidence is coming to light showing that he was adopted by Lolo Soetoro before he was age 5 and became a citizen of Indonesia. This includes his real COLB showing his surname as Soetoro and his father as Lolo Soetoro, his attendance at public schools in Indonesia (which was restricted to citizens of Indonesia,) and his travel in 1980 under an Indonesian passport showing his name as Soetoro.
Until 2007, gaining Indonesian citizenship required giving up any other citizenship and, until the ‘1980’s, U.S. Law said that anyone who gained citizenship under those circumstances was no longer a U.S. citizen regardless of whether they did so with the intent to give up U.S. citizenship.
There is no evidence that he has been naturalized and, thus, regained U.S. citizenship so I believe that he is not currently a U.S. Citizen and is, therefore, not elibible to be president.
His violations of the Logan Act, his lies on his application for admission to the bar and in common use about his real name, his ties to organized crime and to a wife and a pastor who clearly hate all white people, his ties to Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam all make him unsuitable to be president.
The only reason he has gotten this far is the unwillingness of the mainstream media to expose the facts about who he really is.
“Should the Case ever reach the Supreme Court, I think it is reasonable to assume that Justice Clarence Thomas would be highly unlikely to rule in the Senator’s favor.”
Yes, especially since Barry said that “I don’t think he was a strong enough jurist, or legal thinker.” I’m sure Justice Thomas will not appreciate being thrown underneath the bus by this pretentious, presumptuous twit.
Observer Man. We are wingnuts and you are not. We are looking for the truth, you are not. Our eyes — being the eyes of wingnuts — look near and far, we walk head tall and optimistic. You trip over imaginary molehills and sink in mud. We come to mud, we use it as clay and make vessels. Your kind is perennial, you will always be with us, we can even fall to your level. But as long as we stay on the wingnut way we will not. Our wings are strong, our nuts are steel, hardened steel.
Judah, Pajamas Media is a consortium of articles, columnists and blogs. Perhaps your comments are better directed at the author of that essay, rather than the Pajamas Media. I thought that the essayist, Bob Owens, was shorting the reasons for listing aka’s on the register, in order to force his point. I am happy you called him on it.
Thank you Judah for joining all of us wingnuts in these fevered swamps.
What happened to the source in Asia post and comments?
Shiloh, see my comment at the top of the blog, under a new story
Where on the document is BHO’s name listed? How are we to effectively reference Barry Soetoro to Barack Obama if BHO’s name is not on the document?
IMO, this is an example of sloppy journalism, and without a clear explanation of how the Soetoro name can be credibly referenced to Obama, it’s just an attempt to smear the candidate with falsehoods. What is also not discussed in this article is this: even if the names are connected, how do we lend credibility to the person who wrote the document as a person who held, or holds, legal authority over Obama’s name and origin?
In other words, this “discovery” is nothing but nonsense until proven otherwise by LOTS of corroboration. I’d rather read proofs of the existence of Big Foot, which would be much more entertaining.
TD, the Eyeball Kid is a prime example a either a sloppy and abusive reader who due to his own poor reading skills makes abusive comments or of a troll or of a paid operative sowing confusion.
He’s certainly not here to inform himself.
Mirse:
OK, I would be happy to answer your questions.
1. I am a former diplomat, and have been an analyst of Indonesian political, economic, social and cultural issues for around 25 years. I have been living here full time for over 15 years now.
3, 4. No, I did not know Soetoro in 1968. I am offering context for the alleged events, based on my long experience and in-depth knowledge of Indonesia and how things work here. I do also know several people who knew the family at that time, or who were at school in Jakarta with Obama.
5. No, I have not seen the birth certificate. I can only tell you what I know about Indonesia and circumstances here.
6. No, I do not know what Obama has said about visiting a mosque. You should be aware, though, that people (men and boys) visit the mosque for all kinds of reasons. A lawyer I was scheduled to meet last week was late for the meeting because he was tired and took at nap at the mosque. Since Obama was only a kid, and because the government did not approve of open displays of religion at that time, it is unlikely that he would have participated in any kind of fervent prayer activity.
The sort of footage you see on TV these days of huge groups of Muslims praying and chanting would just not have been applicable to Indonesia at that time. It is only in the past decade, since democracy was introduced, that Indonesian Muslims have become more religious and more openly proud of their religion.
7. Yes, I believe that the officials at Obama’s second school would have known perfectly well that he was really a Christian. I know at least 2 other Christians who attended that school at that time, and who have told me they were registered as Muslims “because it was the normal thing to do”.
You should also know that, although the family did not have a lavish lifestyle (this was at least partly because his mother did not want it) Obama was living among the very top of Indonesian society. Then as now, different rules apply in practice to people in high positions than to the general population.
8. I did not mean that it was written on a writing pad belonging to any particular student, or that it might be a fake because it was not on “official” paper. Indonesian students often use writing pads that are checkered rather than lined, so that was my first reaction when seeing the page displayed at the top of this blog. My statement was intended to convey the sense that an Indonesian school registration document is very far from an “official” document in the US sense – even the paper looks like something a student would write or doodle on.
At that time, Indonesia was a really dirt poor country with very limited resources. It was trying to recover from a period of hyperinflation, international isolation, martial law, virtual civil war and general chaos, starvation and misery. I imagine that it was hard to get hold of decent quality paper too. Even these days, I see official letters from government departments with fancy crests and ruber stamps, but written on torn, dirty, low-grade paper such as you would never see in the West. That kind of thing is just not important to Indonesians.
9, 10, 11, 12, 13. I did see a video of a reporter going to one of Obama’s school and looking at his registration document, which was on a page in a large, bound book. Not sure if this is what you refer to. Again, I was not implying that I thought the document was a fake or that it was actually written on a student’s writing pad, just that the presentation, although what I would expect in Indonesia at that time, was a long way from the US-style “official” standard.
On this subject, I see that Judah Benjamin is asserting above that the information in such a school document would have had to be verified by showing the KK (Kartu Keluarga, or family card), which is an “Official Legal Document” that is supposed to prove who belongs to each family. He then claims that Obama’s registration could therefore not possibly contain untrue information.
Yes, he might be right in saying that there was such a formal requirement, but what he evidently does not know is that it is laughably easy to get a KK changed to fit your needs. I have arranged and paid for at least half a dozen employees and acquaintances to get new KKs made up.
The confused and contradictory regulatory environment actually make this a necessity (you have to break one law in order to comply with another). For example, if a person moves from one town to another, he needs a new national ID card, which requires him to be registered on a KK from the new location. So, he has to find someone (a relative, friend, co-worker, neighbor) who will agree to include him on his KK as a close relative. Then he (or I, in this case) goes to the village or neighborhood chief (known as an RT) who holds all these documents, and explains the problem, negotiates a bribe and gets a new KK typed up on a sheet of low-grade white paper (on a typewriter – none of this is computerized). A couple of signatures, a rubber stamp, then everyone drinks tea and shakes hands, and so the problem is solved.
I am not saying that I know that this did occur, I’m just trying to illustrate how easy and commonplace it is, to put the whole situation into the Indonesian context.
13, 14. Again, in the Indonesian context, I would not assume that any of the information on the document necessarily means that Obama was adopted by Soetoro. I do agree that it would be best if Obama just addressed these questions directly to clear the whole matter up, though.
Soetoro may well have considered young Barry to be his “son”. Again, the Indonesian definition is quite different from what we are used to in the West. Here, children are seen more as children of the community than as belonging to their biological father and mother. It is very common for kids to be raised by someone other than their true parents (grandparents, other relatives, family friends, neighbors). Many millions of people from rural areas go to the cities to work, and only see their children once a year. Others let someone else foster or “adopt” their children because they simply cannot afford to feed and clothe them. Although this means that the child is usually transferred to the new “parent’s” KK, in the majority of cases, there is no formal adoption procedure.
People have very loose ideas about how to refer to family relationships, and they are often not even sure exactly how they are related to someone. A person’s “sister” or “son” or “father” may well be nothing of the sort in terms of biology or paperwork. It’s just not important in this society. Also, most people do not use family names, or if they do they often don’t apply to everyone in the family, so there is no need to change names upon “adoption” or marriage the way we do in Western countries.
I hope this answers some of your questions, and sheds some more light on how common practices and expectations of normality in Indonesia are completely different from the US. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Greensleeves, thanks for the information, it was detailed and polite.
Still … what you are saying is that Obama’s formative years in grew up in a culture where corruption was endemic, bribery was a normal part of daily life.
And then as a young man beginning his independent life as an adult, he moved to Chicago to play at politics there.
That fits a pattern, would you say.
mirse:
In answer to your first question, until just a few years ago there was a law against foreign children attending Indonesian schools, and they had to be educated at one of the international schools here, or be sent overseas. Indonesian children were not allowed to attend the international schools in Indonesia, so the wealthy also sent their kids out of the country for school.
I actually looked into this once several years ago, and was unable to figure out when the law came into effect, so I cannot tell you whether it applied in 1968. However, at that time there would have been only a very tiny number of foreign children in Indonesia. Note that foreign does not mean Chinese-Indonesian, even though many of them were stripped of their citizenship and left stateless.
So even if it was not against the law, it was certainly extremely unusual for a non-Indonesian child to even be here, and those who were here attended one of the international schools. However, from what I know of Obama’s mother, she would probably have wanted her son to have a “local” school experience, albeit that it was with the kids of the elite.
1, 3. Yes, I saw that too. That footage was filmed in 2008, not 1968, though. Do you know if there was a room for Christians at that school (Besuki School – I used to live one block from there)
back in 1968? Also, I don’t know for sure that he didn’t attend Christianity classes as well. In those days, there were only a few hours of religious instruction per week anyway. The curriculum was changed later on in the 1970s to include a lot more religion, as I remember.
4, 6. I asked one person, and he really does not remember whether Barry was Obama or Soetoro. Names really do not matter much in Indonesia, especially to a 6-10 year old.
But seriously, people here do not generally know their friends’ full names the way they would in the US. Some people have only one single name, others have 2 or 3, others still a long string of names. Then, many people have aliases, and they might have ID cards or other documents for some of them. Most families don’t use a common family name (surname). Sometimes people will decide to assume the name of a relative or close friend they like or admire.
I have been here a long time, and I still haven’t figured it out! Like many situations in Indonesia, it is best not to try to apply Western
logic to it, because you will only end up banging your head against the wall.
7. Yes, they were strict when it came to Chinese-Indonesians, although many of them managed to blend into the general population by buying new identity papers. I’m not sure how strict they were about other foreigners – as I said there were very few of them here apart from diplomats and a few aid workers, missionaries and employees of banks, oil companies etc. But
again, even if there were strict rules, there is always a difference between theory and practice here.
8. No idea
9, 10. Since you ask, I do not know for 100% sure that he did ever enter a mosque since I was not there. As a nominally Muslim student, he would have been required/expected to go to
Friday prayers, but I expect that if he did not want to go inside, he could have stayed outside, or sat in one of the back rooms if there was one.
It is important to note that there are different types of “mosque”. A mesjid is a large, purpose-built mosque where there are services led by an Islamic preacher. A musholla is more of a
prayer room, usually a small one-room building or just a back room. There is no preacher, and many treat it as just a place to go and take a break from work or school. They may or may not pray while they are there. A school would have a musholla, not a mosque, unless it is an Islamic school (which Obama’s schools were not). I do not see a mesjid at either of his schools.
Even if he did go inside a musholla, it would not have been a mosque in the sense that there was a service or a preacher. So if the issue is about whether he attended a service, he would not
have done so at either of his schools’ facilities.
America, even the Bush haters, are not witless enough to vote for an anti-American president “of color.” All that money down the drain.
The Hillary contingent will bow before their chosen messiah Obama. They won’t raise a fuss. They are good little sheeple.
The photo has disappeared from daylife. The URL http://www.daylife.com/photo/01u33pL9Ns06D now brings up an empty page.
Greensleeves, you raise some good points but if I were an Obama supporter(I am not because I think he is totally unqualified with no real solutions) I would DEMAND that he come clean on basic information that any normal person would expect a candidate to reveal to the public (Actual name, nationality and birthplace). If he gets disqualified due to document falsification , evasion or chicanery he could set the Democratic Party, African-American politics, and trust in journalism back years if not decades. Obama is unbelievably clandestine and hopes to fly in under the radar, but this could turn out to be a disaster for his supporters.
Mirse:
2a. A civil service diplomat for a Western European country.
2b. I have never had to use my birth certificate for anything. I don’t even have a copy of it although I know where I can apply for one. If you are asking about Indonesia, a foreigner applying for visas, residence permits etc. only has to show his passport as proof of identity.
4. I have retained my original citizenship. You need to know that it is extremely unusual for a foreigner, especially a Westerner, to become an Indonesian citizen. I know of 3 Westerners who have become Indonesian citizens, and have only ever met one of them. One of these people is a Catholic priest who has been here for most of his life. The other two are businessmen with large investments here, who decided that it would be easier to own and operate companies here if they changed their citizenship. There are also 3 other well-known people that I know of who took Indonesian citizenship, and who are long since dead.
In the US, many foreigners who move there become US citizens, but it just does not work like that here or in other developing countries.
5, 6, 7. I really don’t have any specific knowledge of the regulations at that time, but if they are anything like those prevailing in the past couple of decades, it would have been relatively easy for Ann and Barry to live in Indonesia.
The paperwork required for a foreign woman married to an Indonesian is a great deal less complicated or expensive than for a foreign man married to a local woman – or for a single expatriate. As for entering the country, they would probably have come in on social visit visas sponsored by Lolo Soetoro or even tourist visas, before getting the permanent documents organized. Or it could all have been arranged before they arrived, so they would have entered the country with all their paperwork already in order.
Either way, it would have been pretty simple compared with what other foreigners go through.
8. These days, at least, to leave the country for good, you just apply for what is called an Exit Permit Only, which takes a couple of days to come through. I don’t know if this rule existed then.
American citizens don’t need any kind of permit to enter the US!
9, 10. For a trip taken in, I believe it was 1981, there would be no stamps in his current passport since no passport is valid for more than 10 years. There would also be no record of any trips he ever took in a normal passport file as you just hold on to a passport that has expired. You don’t send it back to the passport office, so they don’t know where you have traveled to.
My understanding is that the US government (CIA, and maybe Justice?) conducts routine background checks on presidential candidates. Presumably, since CIA and ISI (the Pakistani security services) have been working together since the Nixon administration, Obama’s 1981 trip would have been known to CIA. Obama stayed with his college friend, whose father was the interim prime minister, so he would have had no trouble entering the country, and conceivably might not even have needed a passport.
Greensleeves — you wrote: “My understanding is that the US government (CIA, and maybe Justice?) conducts routine background checks on presidential candidates.”
What is the basis for that understanding?
to bvw:
a) my own professional experience
b) news articles
Greensleeves — can you be more specific.
mirse:
1. Not sure why you want to know this, since it does not pertain to Indonesia. Anyway, I got my first passport when I was a month old, so I really don’t know, but I can only assume that my parents must have had to prove my identity somehow. However, I have never seen my own birth certificate, and my parents don’t have it, so maybe they used some other record from the hospital where I was born.
I suspect that birth certificates are more important in the US than in many other countries.
When I renew my passport (which is about every 4-5 years because it gets full so quickly), I just present my current passport as proof of identity. There may well be different rules in different countries.
2. I am unable to find specific information about whether you need to present a birth certificate if you want to become an Indonesian citizen. My educated guess says that you do not, given that it is not required for any other permits.
Many, if not most, Indonesians do not have birth certificates. There is no central civil register here, even though everyone is
supposed to have a national ID card with a unique number. In practice, many people have more than one ID card, particularly if they have ever moved from one district to another, but also if they use different aliases. It can therefore be hard to pinpoint anyone’s real identity. The whole area of family law is a complete mess here, with overlapping and contradictory laws from different eras (dating back to the 19th century) and covering different groups of people (Europeans – from Dutch colonial times, Muslims, Christians, all the various tribes).
Here is a link to some info on the 1958 Nationality Act that talks about Indonesian Citizenship:
http://www.expat.or.id/info/nationalityact.html
There is a new Citizenship Law now (2006), but it was changed mainly to accommodate the many children of Indonesian mothers and foreign fathers who previously were forced to take the citizenship of their fathers. This meant that their parents had to renew their visas every year (entailing a trip overseas and a hefty fee). Here is a link to a law firm that handles this:
http://www.wijayaco.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=112&Itemid=243
I cannot see any mention of birth certificates on either page.
Also, I should mention that my experience is that the authorities always require a lot of different documents, but that they often do not even ask for all of them when it comes to processing the permit. The regulations tend to change slightly from time to time, and are usually enforced strictly for the first few
months or so. Then the staff get sloppy and don’t bother to do their jobs properly until the next “crackdown” comes around.
Just about everyone who applies for an official document uses an agent who has the right connections to ensure that everything runs smoothly, and the staff who can go and sit in a dozen different government offices and wait for papers to get typed up.
3. Yes, Muslims are supposed to face Mecca when they pray, but most just guess. Most Indonesians do not pray 5 times a day – it is only the strictest Muslims who do so. The lunchtime prayers are usually seen as the most important. Many Muslims here do not pray regularly or even at all, though. Islam in Indonesia has strong elements of Hinduism and, particularly, animism and superstition, even black magic. It does vary from one part of the country to another, but it is definitely not the same brand of Islam that you see in the Middle East or Pakistan for instance.
People do tend to become more observant during the fasting month (Ramadan), but even this is largely a recent trend that I observed starting in 1998 at the beginning of the economic crisis and the downfall of president Soeharto.
Just as there are huge variations in the religious habits and beliefs of all the people in the US who would write “Christian” if they had to give a religious affiliation on a form, there are many
different types of Muslims.
88% of Indonesians are officially Muslim, but it is widely agreed that this is an overstatement. There is no official state religion, but everyone has to declare their religion out of the 5 recognized faiths: Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism (referred to as Kristen),
Hinduism and Buddhism.
In Islamic schools, students do have to pray (but most of them not 5 times a day). In public schools, there are no compulsory prayers these days as far as I know. In 1968-71, I cannot imagine there would have been compulsory prayers given that the government at that time did not encourage religious displays and the school curriculum was pretty light on religious content.
To greensleeves
So you are a Western European Diplomat based in Indonesia, you have lived there for fifteen years and studied the country for ten years before that. That means that your knowledge and experience of Indonesia essentially covers the period 1983-2008. In other words a period of institutionalized and systematic corruption where anything can be bought and everything has a price. Would it surprise you that according to a wide variety of sources in Indonesia, Australia, the Philippines, Malaysia and Europe conditions in the period 1958-1980 were radically different that the Law, especially 62/1958, tended to be enforced with some rigor and that the very least that would have been likely to happen to Stanley Ann Dunham and her son was deportation when their KITAS Visas expired? Clearly it would because you take the view that you do, nonetheless it happens to be the truth. I, too, base my opinion on news articles and personal/professional experience but I also base it on Law Texts, the Indonesian Code and Constitution and Indonesian History. It boils down to your word against mine, doesn’t it? Neither is any better than the other, except that I admit I could be wrong. Clearly you don’t read the same newspapers, books, etc that I do.
I am perfectly well aware of how a system like the Indonesian one works because although I have never lived in Indonesia I have lived under very similar systems. One does not need to have lived in Indonesia to have experience every bit as relevant as your own. In another country I know the price of everything from the equivalent of a KK to a Commission in the Security Police. I could arrange Visas, Passports and Citizenships in that country and another one. Since you are a Diplomat it is axiomatic that you could do so. That does not prove that a low to medium level Indonesian Army Liaison Officer could do so in 1966. In fact you have advanced no proof at all, merely a guess and anecdotal evidence. Can you deny that in the vast majority of cases the Documentation is correct? That the situation you are suggesting is fully as exceptional as an adoption would be, if not more so? Do you really believe that Lolo Soetoro, who may have been under observation by the Security Police for connections to either the fading Sukarno Regime or the rising Suharto Regime, would have taken the chance? I don’t. I don’t think he could afford the bribes either but the adoption would have been paid for by somebody else, so that he could afford. Since Stanley Ann had no intention of returning to the USA why would they behave differently?
We have photo and video evidence of the Register, we have the article from “The Banjarmasin Post”, called ‘Bocah Negro Gemuk Itu Rajin Ke Mushala’, by Rony Amir dated July 9th, 2006. The Document is genuine and the people who remember the Senator as a boy in Jakarta have offered no testimony that conflicts with it.
“Indonesia 1980. An Official Handbook.”, National Information Agency Republic of Indonesia
“A Concise Legal History of South-East Asia”, M B Hooker, Oxford University Press (1978)
“Modern Legal Systems Cyclopedia.”,K R Redden, William S Hine and Company (1990)
“Sriro’s Desk Reference of Indonesian Law”, Andrew I Sriro, Equinox Publishing (2006)
“Islam, Law, and Equality in Indonesia”, John Richard Bowen, Cambridge University Press (2003)
“Nationality and International Law in Asian Perspective”, Ko Swan Sik, T M C Asser Instituut, The Hague (1990)
“Dual Nationality: Report from the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence.”, Australia Parliament, Government Printers (1977)
The evidence in these books, numerous reports and the opinions of more than one Indonesian Law Firm support my view, and so does the Indonesian Constitution. You oppose this with “It could be faked, I could arrange it”, well so could I and it doesn’t mean anyone ever did fake it.
There is nothing in anything that you have said, or implied, that renders it likely that this document is wrong and I am becoming irritated with the sublime self assurance of those who insist bribery MUST be involved. It would be possible to falsify all of the necessary Documents but there would be no necessity to do it and there is no evidence that it was done. There are Laws covering the situation in the Indonesian Code, you know it and so do I, therefore it can happen. It does happen in fact, and if you do not know that ask the Australian Consular staff if you can borrow some old Australian Newspapers. There is absolutely nothing on this Document which is either impossible, or improbable and the fact that it specifies his birthplace as outside Indonesia virtually guarantees that it is not only correct but matches the KK and adoption. In fact, the situation was sufficiently unusual that the idea of fakery becomes virtually untenable.
We are not talking about 2008, we are talking about 1966-1968, a period you admit to knowing little of, you are guessing based on experience and so am I (and even you admit that there are periods when the Laws are strictly enforced) but I am also using commonsense and logic.
Since you are not American I find your involvement somewhat odd and I must assume that the Legal Problems involved with the Senator’s position are not something that you have studied. In fact I know that you have not because you are unaware that there is no necessity for any kind of vetting of the Senator in the US System. Does your country use jus soli or jus sanguinis as a test for Citizenship, or does it use both? I ask the following questions:
In your opinion, what is the precise percentage probability that the School Register of SD Asisi is falsified? In your opinion, what is the precise percentage probability that the Soetoro KK was falsified? Bear in mind that we are talking about people who were not wealthy, one of whom was an Indonesian Government Official and the years 1965 to1968.
If that percentage is lower than 25% a problem exists and there is nothing that you can say to change that. If that percentage is below 10% you have been misleading. If that percentage is below 5% you should not have written your comments at all. At the best, in my opinion, you could go for 25%.
BTW, I guarantee that had you tried to get your current job providing only the information the Senator has you would not have it. You would not have a Security Clearance either. There is no evidence that the Senator has ever been vetted by anybody, at any time.
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